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Smart Supplementation

Dr. Shannon O'Grady

Dr. Shannon O’Grady

By Emma Maaranen

As we are making our New Year’s resolutions, many of us make some type of commitment to better our health.  These commitments usually include dietary changes such as reducing sugar intake, eating more dark leafy greens  or making sure we are getting the minerals we need.  Often these choices about diet supplementation are based on assumptions about what is good for us and what may be lacking.  Recently I had the opportunity to chat with Dr. Shannon O’Grady, an expert on human physiology and nutrition, who shared/debunked a few myths about supplements.

“I’ve heard nutritional supplements are not regulated by the FDA.  Therefore, how do I know if the amount of a nutrient on a label is really what I am getting?”

Shannon has been spending the past year working with a major supplement manufacturer ensuring they would meet the requirements of a scheduled FDA audit.  Per FDA regulation, all dietary supplement must meet any listed label claim for ingredient source and potency at the time of manufacture as well as through the listed expiration date (beware of supplements that do not list an expiration date). These label claims must be accurate after normal shipping and storage by the manufacturer and retailer. It is true that supplements are not as rigorously tested as pharmaceuticals.  This is because supplements “may help digestive health,” not “prevent acid reflux of the stomach.” Both supplements and pharmaceuticals may cause side effects and may even interact, and it’s extremely important to consult a healthcare professional if you have any major health issues and you’re thinking of starting a supplement program.

“Probiotics are in the news a lot lately, touting better immunity from communicable diseases to reducing belly fat.  I want to take this super supplement!  Is eating yogurt every day enough?”

vitamin picResearch on the exact benefits of probiotic and how they work is still being worked out, but all evidence suggests that a diverse and thriving flora in our guts enhances health in many facets.  However, when you take a probiotic, most of the bacterium are killed in the stomach before they are able to have a beneficial effect. The higher the per strain dose (measured in colony forming units of CFUs) you take the more likely it is that some of those microbes will get to their destination and have a beneficial impact on gut health.  In a nutshell, it’s better to take a probiotic containing 2 strain than a supplement with the same dose, but spread among 10 strains.  Also – stick with a higher CFUs count, at least twenty billion.   Unfortunately your yogurt has too few CFUs to be a therapeutic dose.

“I’ve heard you should take probiotics when you are on antibiotics; why is this important?”

Taking antibiotics as prescribed by your physician is very important.  However, the antibiotics will kill much of your beneficial bacteria as well.  If you are taking a probiotic while taking an antibiotic, the organisms your are ingesting will be killed off as well.  Most people will have their guts repopulated with flora a few days after the course of antibiotics is complete, but taking a probiotic concurrent with your course of antibiotics will help the process out.  There is probiotic yeast, sacchromyces boulardii, that has been found to aid in digestive function and is not venerable to antibiotics (antibiotics target bacterium, not yeast).  A significant body of scientific literature has shown that taking this yeast while on your antibiotic regimen will reduce antibiotic caused diarrhea and reduce the likelihood of developing a C. difficile infection (a life threatening bacterial infection of the digestive tract that can occur after antibiotic treatment). This can be taken while on antibiotics and may be compounded with antibiotics in the future!

“Vitamin D was the darling of the health industry last year, and I have added it to my regime of supplements.  Is it still believed to be important?”

Yes, vitamin D is important.  It is needed for our bodies to absorb calcium to strengthen bones, regulates the immune system and reduces the severity of asthma (including exercise-induced asthma).  We get vitamin D from the sun, but wearing sunscreen and living with air pollution reduces what we get naturally, so supplementation may be useful.  However, we don’t absorb those 600 IU/day we are taking unless we are pairing it with magnesium.  You could eat a spinach salad with avocados and pumpkin seeds to get a hefty dose of magnesium with your vitamin D!

These are some on the insights Dr. Shannon O’Grady shared with me that I thought were especially useful for athletes.  As you turn your New Year’s Resolutions into lifelong healthy habits, I hope these tid-bits about nutrition supplements help you navigate the confusing world of nutrition.

Spice Up Your Workout

By Emma Maaranen

Valentine’s Day is just around the corner.  I celebrate this day by spoiling myself in mind, body and spirit.  This year, in addition to reading my favorite academic journal in a cozy coffee shop, ski touring in a secret stash of powder and concluding the day with a fantastic home-cooked meal, I am going to add a little fire to the mix.  How?  I have recently been introduced to embrocations.  Embrocations are topical preparations that increase circulation in muscle tissue, and are staples in the world of European cycling and Nordic teams. They are rubbed into muscles before a warm-up to enhance the process and keep blood flow to hard working tissue during training or competition.  Most embrocations use capsicum, the heat agent in chile peppers, to do the job.  I have been playing with JTree’s Full Heat Embrocation on my calf muscles before running and skiing to support these muscles as they recover from a bout of tendonitis.  I have found that the embrocation is letting me train just a little harder at this stage of my healing than I would normally expect.  I have also been using it on my toes before a long cold day of riding chair lifts to keep my feet a bit warmer with great success.  I’m excited to see how it may help me avoid cramping on long cycling days this spring.  Because I’m now obsessed with these little spicy creams, Focus Bodywork is now carrying JTree’s Full Heat Embrocation.  So, this Valentine’s Day give a little love to your hard working muscles, and add a little spice to your workout.


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Caramel and Chocolate SlicesLeo Byrne Photography

Vegan Caramel And Chocolate Slices

These vegan treats come from Holly White's gorgeous vegan cookbook.

Serving: 10
Time: 3 hours +
Difficulty: Easy

For the base:

  • 140 Medjool dates, pitted
  • 100g cashew nuts
  • 90g desiccated coconut
  • 40g rolled oats
  • 1 tablespoon melted coconut oil

For the date caramel:

  • 200g Medjool dates, pitted
  • 4 tablespoons almond or cashew butter
  • 1 tablespoon melted coconut oil
  • A pinch of sea salt

For the top layer:

  • 100g cacao butter
  • 40g raw cacao powder
  • 20g coconut sugar or 2 tablespoons agave syrup
  • A handful of ﬂaked almonds

  1. Put the dates, cashews, desiccated coconut and oats in a food processor and blend to combine.
  2. Line a 15cm x 20cm baking tin with non-stick baking paper, then transfer the base mixture to the tin, pressing it down firmly with your hands or a spatula. Make sure you get it into all the corners. Put in the freezer to set.
  3. Don’t worry about cleaning the food processor in between – just scrape it out with a spatula. Put all the date caramel ingredients in the food processor and blend until smooth. Spread the caramel on top of the base and return to the freezer to set.
  4. Create a double boiler by simmering a little water in a saucepan and placing a second pan or heatproof bowl on top, making sure the bottom of the pan or bowl doesn’t touch the water. Put the cacao butter in the pan or bowl and allow to melt, then remove from the heat. Whisk in the cacao powder and coconut sugar until creamy. Pour the chocolate over the caramel layer. To add extra crunch, scatter some flaked almonds on top of the chocolate before you put it in the fridge to set.
  5. Refrigerate for 3 hours before cutting into 10 slices. These will keep in an airtight container in the fridge for up to five days, but I also love these straight from the freezer, where they will keep for up to two months.

Recipe credit: Holly White

Recipe extracted from Vegan-ish: A Gentle Introduction to a Plant-Based Diet by Holly White. Published by Gill Books, RRP €22.99.

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PHOTOS: Ghana Beach Soccer presents Copa Lagos championship trophy to GFA

The new Champions of the Copa Lagos Beach Soccer Club Tournament, Keta Sunset Sports Club, presented the prestigious trophy to the Ghana Football Association on Thursday following the return from the competition.

Led by Ghana Beach Soccer President Yaw Ampofo Ankrah and club CEO Ruben Adjaho, Sunset Sports from Keta called on President Kurt Okraku at his office at the Ghana FA after winning the biggest Beach Soccer event outside the CAF Afcon.

Below are some shots from the event:

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The Short-Sightedness of Anti-Price-Gouging Legislation

Columnist Michael Hiltzik wrote a piece in the LA Times the other day calling economists’ opposition price-gouging legislation wrong “both morally and economically.”  By pure coincidence, I addressed the “moral” argument yesterday on this blog.  Allow me now to respond to a very large economic error he makes.

Hiltzik writes:

Another factor commonly overlooked by defenders of price gouging is that natural disasters tend to be (1) short-term and (2) not amenable to rapid response by market forces. If there’s no physical way to get a new supply of bottled water into some part of Houston, then allowing unrestrained price increases won’t produce a larger supply. Retailers lucky enough to have a few cases in the back room when the crisis hits, however, will reap a windfall. But who does that help, except the lucky retailers?

Strictly speaking, he is correct that natural disasters tend to be short-term, at least the disaster itself.  It may also mean that it is not amenable to a “rapid response by market forces.”  But that doesn’t necessarily mean that anti-price-gouging legislation is the way to go.

Take a look at the following diagram:

Source: Price Theory and Applications, 7th Ed., by Jack Hirshleifer, Amihai Glazer, and David Hirshleifer, page 214.

This is just your standard supply and demand chart with price on the vertical axis and quantity on the horizontal.  Let’s assume that curves IS (Immediate Run Supply Curve) and D (Demand) are immediately before Harvey hits Houston.  Immediately after, demand shifts to the dashed D’ curve.  IS doesn’t immediately change because there are now frictions (ie flooded roads) preventing new supplies coming in.  The price level now rises to PI (the intersection where the D’ curve intersects IS).  This increase in price is what people call “price-gouging.”  The “lucky few” retailers who have the inventory on hand may enjoy a brief windfall.  This is where Mr. Hiltzik’s analysis ends.  What he doesn’t consider is what happens as we move away from the immediate period and into the longer run (the days that occur after the disaster).  Higher prices induce more supply to the region, especially as entrepreneurs discover ways to overcome the physical barriers preventing supplies from arriving.  And, as the Second Law of Supply says, the longer prices stay relatively high, the more elastic the supply curve becomes.  We see the development of the LS (Long-run Supply curve) in the diagram above.  If there is no interference in the market, we now see increased supply in the market (represented by the delta-S section in the above diagram).

However, Mr. Hiltzik demands a price ceiling to be imposed to prevent this higher price level.  On the above diagram, that is represented by the original price level, Po.  In the immediate run, there is no deadweight loss to the community stemming from the price ceiling (eagle-eyed readers will notice this is identical to the question from my microeconomics comprehensive exam from three weeks ago).  There is no deadweight loss, but there is a shortage, represented by area H on the above diagram.  However, what is important to note is that with the price ceiling enforced, even as the supply curve becomes more elastic and more supplies can make it into the devastated area the shortage does not disappear!  No additional supplies make it into the market despite the need!  The quantity the market supplies never shifts off of Qo.  Nota bene: This means that, so long as the demand for goods and services are higher than the pre-disaster level (ie, so long as disaster conditions persist), there is a persistent shortage of needed goods in the market! This stands in stark contrast to the increase in supply created when prices are allowed to adjust.

In short, Mr. Hiltzik’s analysis is too short-sighted.  He looks at just the immediate run (which is dire) but fails to account for anything beyond that (including the very next day).  And we are already beyond the IS curve for Harvey; the supply curve is becoming more and more elastic every day.  And it is becoming that way because of the price signal.  Even in the immediate run, anti-price-gouging legislation has major negative consequences.

I’d also like to add that the situation described above is probably a bit optimistic.  In all likelihood, following Harvey, we saw both an increase in demand (D’) and a decrease in supply (a shift from IS to an IS’ curve somewhere to the left of the IS curve).  So the shortage, H, caused by the price ceiling would likely be larger than depicted here.

12 thoughts on “The Short-Sightedness of Anti-Price-Gouging Legislation

  1. Jon, I wouldn’t worry a lot about resources spent on enforcement, The fact is most rules.laws are dependent and planned on self compliance of the majority of people who do follow rules. If the rule stops unwanted behavior of the targeted majority, merely a few token and well-publicized cases of violators is all that is needed (and those can be quietly dropped after the publicity dies down).

    A good negotiator can usually get something quietly dropped or greatly reduced if they are willing to let the other side have their cake and time in the light (that is, I won’t fight you now, but off-the-record, let’s drop this in 180 days, OK?)

    How about some research on what actually becomes of these gouging law violations? I’m guessing not much.

    • Walt

      Why should those cases be “quietly dropped”? If someone breaks the law shouldn’t they be punished?

      Besides some of those fines are pretty hefty. That’s good revenue for the state or city.

      • Ron, a lot of rules/laws are symbolic and/or for popularity and are dependent mostly on voluntary compliance. Did you notice the violations are addressed on a written complaint with evidence-provided basis? How much do you suppose police would spend on enforcing speed limits if they only investigated and ticketed from other drivers’ written complaints that provide evidence for the ticket?

        I’m still guessing most violations are not charged and the ones that are not much comes of them if you look a year or so later. I tried, but did not find, the final outcome in the Shepperdson case. I’m only addressing Jon’s resource usage complaint here and not the law itself.

      • “If someone breaks the law shouldn’t they be punished?”
        It takes scarce resources to continue a fight to possibly eventually win. If publicly spanking a few people gets the voluntary rate to an acceptable percentage, that is all that is necessary. A rule/law/policy maker’s nightmare is that the voluntary compliance rate is zero.

        • Nothing promotes disrespect for the law like non-enforcement.

          It takes scarce resources to continue a fight to possibly eventually win.

          Taxpayer money is one resource that is seldom scarce. There seems to be an endless supply of it. It’s likely that any decision on whether or not to pursue a charge is at the whim of the prosecutor, not due to any concern for resources.

          What is an acceptable rate of law breaking? And whatever happened to equal treatment under the law?

          • Ron, few things can be 100% and affordable (not even “O” rings for the Space Shuttle). If I can get 95% voluntary compliance with a “Do Not Touch”: sign on a delicate object in museum, and that is sufficient to protect that object, I am not going to pay for 2 armed guards 24/7 to guard that object.

            Again, laws. rules, regulations, policies . . . are usually dependent on a very high voluntary compliance rate (some are never even intended to be enforced). I doubt the actual enforcement cost of the anti-gouging laws in an average state would even be a rounding error in the budget. Are you going to buy 19 generators and try the laws out during the next hurricane in Mississippi after Shepperdson?

            How much would you budget to have a 100% compliance rate for speed limits in a city if you were a mayor of that city? Would any money be left over for anything else if you tried?

          • Ron,

            >—-“Nothing promotes disrespect for the law like non-enforcement.”

            It would be easier to take you seriously on this if you didn’t want the law enforced only by vigilantes and private security for those who could afford it.

            >—“Taxpayer money is one resource that is seldom scarce. There seems to be an endless supply of it.”

            It would be easier to take you seriously on this if you didn’t think that government debt was such a big problem. If it’s so easy to raise tax revenue then why is the government taking on such an alarming amount of debt? You can’t have it both ways here on the ease of collecting taxes.

            >—” And whatever happened to equal treatment under the law?”

            It would be easier to take you seriously on this if you didn’t support a system where justice was only available to those who could pay for it themselves or through private charity.

          • Hi Greg

            Sorry I didn’t see your comment earlier.

            I didn’t intend that you take me seriously.

            BTW I think it’s government *spending* that’s a problem. Taxes and debt are just two ways to spend taxpayers’ money. And of course inflation is another.

Comments are closed.


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First the bush fires, and now COVID-19…

We are continuing to work our way through some challenging and uncertain times.

Right now we are open for business.

To ensure the health and safety of our team, our customers and their families, we are making some small changes to ensure we can continue operations with minimal disruption to our customers’ businesses.

Prompt delivery of spare parts and equipment via air and road freight continues as normal. We have good stock of all regular product lines and our supply chain is so far unaffected. Please note there may be some impact to overnight air services due to the reduction of domestic flights.

On-premises visitor access is now restricted to minimise unnecessary contact. Where practical we encourage all orders to be placed via phone or email.

Additional measures are in place for safe working areas, freight drop-off/collections and increased cleaning within our offices.

As our team shifts toward working remotely you can still reach us via the normal channels.

We have plans in place to further adapt and continue operations whilst it is safe to do so.

We are all taking this day by day. As circumstances change we will continue to monitor and adhere to official health advice and government updates.

Stay safe and please reach out if you have any questions or concerns.

Ph: 02 6947 2833


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A fun filled activity music theory book for children. There are keyboard, rhythm and notespeller activites and stickers to go along with the book. Every child learning Music will LOVE this book! Prices quoted before GST

Children Music Theory

For age 4 to 7 years old

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Sonic Revenant: Flexible Zombie Tuner

Post your custom made cards in this forum
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Location: Garreg Mach Monastery

Sonic Revenant: Flexible Zombie Tuner

Post #1 by GarlandChaos » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:02 am

Sonic Revenant
Level 6
DARK / Zombie / Effect
If this card is sent to the GY by a Zombie monster's effect: You can Special Summon this card, but banish it when it leaves the field. You can only use this effect of "Sonic Revenant" once per turn. When this card is Summoned by its own effect: You can target 1 other Zombie monster you control; this card's Level becomes the same as that monster's, until the end of this turn. If this card you control is used as Synchro Material, you can treat it as a non-Tuner.
ATK / 2400 | DEF / 0

A free summon off of Samurai Skull, Uni-Zombie, and Gozuki, among other cards, and also doubles as a Synchro enabler. It's also Level 6 in case you wanna splash it into Vampires to use with their "new" Xyz.

Feel free to use in whatever you see fit.

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Suffering of the Nonexistent

by DarwinsRottweiler 9 min read1st Mar 201912 comments

Summary: We should consider adding entities which don't exist into our moral circle. For various reasons, our naive ontology of separating things into "existent" and "non-existent" should be questioned. When taken to its logical extent, this means that we should consider logically impossible entities as moral patients.

The only justifiable stopping place for for the expansion of altruism is the point at which all whose welfare can be affected by our actions are included within the circle of altruism.
--Peter Singer

Nothing is more real than nothing.
--Samuel Beckett

Effective altruists are no strangers to strange ideas. A core principle which underlies much of EA work is the notion of taking ideas seriously. Understanding this principle can help explain why the community works on projects that many people think are complete nonsense. Here are some examples

  • The idea that at some point in the coming decades an artificial superintelligence will be constructed, and humanity may become extinct shortly afterwards.
  • Entities in other universes causally disconnected from our own may still be morally relevant, and we should take steps to enter a positive sum trade with them.
  • The natural suffering of animals, which has been occurring for hundreds of millions of years, is a moral tragedy and humans ought to reduce their pain.

There is no other community, as far as I'm aware, which takes these ideas very seriously. It's no coincidence, either. If you want to be a successful consequentialist, then you must be able to put aside your own personal biases and misconceptions.

Being successful at reducing suffering, or achieving any other goal, requires trying to find out what reality is really like, and accepting what you find. If you simply rationalize to yourself that you are doing good, then you will never discover your own mistakes.

Here, I will argue for something which I predict will be controversial. With a fair warning, I do not believe that everything that is controversial should be listened to. However, I do believe that most the things worth listening to were at some point controversial.

Many effective altruists have rightly noted that over time, we humans have become concerned with ever larger circles of moral concern. Roughly speaking, in the beginning all that people cared about was their own tribe and family. Gradually, people shifted to caring about local strangers and people of other religions, races, nationalities and so on. These days animal welfare is still on the fringe, but millions of people recognize that animal suffering should be taken seriously. Effective altruists are pushing the boundary by adding small minds and digital agents.

Brian Tomasik has admirably pushed the boundary a bit further, asking whether we should be concerned with the happenings of fundamental particle physics. The motivation behind this jump is intuitive, even though its conclusion may be highly counterintuitive. How can we be physicalists -- that is, believe that physics is all that exists -- and maintain that our ethics has nothing to say about the most fundamental parts of our universe? In a different world, perhaps one with a slightly different evolutionary history, this question might seem natural rather than absurd.

The question I have is whether our moral circle should be extended even further. After seeing many people's reactions to Tomasik's post, I have no doubt that some people will view this ethical project negatively. However, unlike some, I don't think that making the point is a large hazard. At worst, it will provide our critics with a potential source of mockery and derision. At best it will open our eyes to the most important issue that we should care about. After our long search, perhaps the time for the true Cause X has arrived?

My idea starts by commenting that we are fundamentally confused by reality. Historically, confusion has been a rich source for making new discoveries. Physicists were confused by the aberrations of Mercury's orbit, which led them to discover the General Theory of Relativity. Even small confusions can lead to large discoveries, and there is no confusion as enormous as the confusion over what's real and what's not real.

One technique some particularly reductive philosophers have used to dissolve confusion is by appealing to our own cognitive algorithms. Instead of asking why something is a certain way, for example "Why does anything exist at all?" we should instead ask what cognitive algorithm produced the question in the first place. In this case, the idea is that our brain has a mental model of "existence" and "non-existence" and has placed us in the former category. Then, our brain asks what sort of process could have possibly placed us in the category. The mistake appears almost obvious if you put it this way: why should we expect any process to create the universe at all. Processes are causal things, and we are using this in-universe speak to talk about the entire universe. It is no wonder why we are getting confused. We are applying concepts beyond their explanatory boundary.

This simple argument has been used to argue for quite a few radical theories. One idea is to recognize that there really is no distinction between real, and non-real entities. Perhaps all possible worlds really exist in some grand ensemble, and we are merely looking at one small part.

There is a certain standard way that this argument goes. I too see some insight in the idea that we are small creatures living in a big world. Everything that is not outright contradictory could perhaps describe a possible world, and no entity within such a world could tell the difference between a possible world and an actual one. Ergo, all possible worlds exist.

The main error I see is that the argument doesn't go far enough. We still think that concepts such as "logically possible" and "lawful universes" should be coherent when we look at the larger scale structure of things. Why do we believe that only logically possible entities should exist? Have we no creativity!

The ultimate confusion comes down to something even deeper, which is the idea that any of this language we use to discuss possibilities and impossibilities in any way refers to the true makeup of reality. I hardly have the words to describe my misapprehension with this approach. Indeed, natural language is unsuitable for discussing metaphysical matters without being misinterpreted.

Therefore, out of fear of being misunderstood, I will tread lightly. My main point is not that I have everything figured out, or that people should believe my (at times) wacky metaphysical views. Instead, I want to argue for the weakest possible thesis which can still support my main point: we should extend our moral sympathies to those outside of the traditional boundary we call "existence."

Understandably, many will find the idea that we should care about non-existent entities to be absurd. One question is how it is even possible for non-existent entities to suffer, if they don't exist. The implicit premise is that suffering is something that can only happen to logically possible entities. Logically impossible entities are exempt.

My view of existence is different, and doesn't lend itself to such questions in a natural manner. Take the claim that bats exist. Surely, a thesis as solid as "bats exist" could never be disproven. But anyone trained in the art of making careful considerations should already see some flaws.

When someone makes the claim that bats exist, in their head they have a model of bat-like things, flying around in the darkness. They see that in their minds eye, and then internally check whether such bat-like things are consistent with their memory. Their brain's response is immediate and unquestioned. Of course bats exist, I remember seeing one once. But in philosophy we should never accept something as obvious.

If our idea of existence is merely that we have some internal check for consistency in our own minds, and that we believe that the universe has a sort of order and rhythm to it, then this idea of existence should scare us. We are making a metaphysical assumption as grand as we can in order to support a much smaller belief that bats really do exist. It really shouldn't shock us that it is possible to question this model of ours. Evolution designed organisms which could reliably reproduce, not those which understood the fundamental nature of reality. It is difficult to understand this idea without introducing analogies to other confusions. Take the example of our confusion over consciousness. The confusion over what counts as conscious and what doesn't count is similar in the sense that it produces deep seated (and often irrational) intuitions. We are not very good at perfect introspection.

Once we realize that our assumptions are a bit baseless, we can start exploring what reality might really look like. Perhaps this whole notion of existence should be discarded altogether and replaced with more precise ideas.

In what sense do I think we can talk meaningfully about things which don't exist? I think the logically possible versus impossible paradigm is a good enough model for our purposes. We take existence to be the claim that something is consistent with a certain set of axioms. In this frame, multiverse trade and cooperation is about cooperating with a set of logically possible entities, and ignoring those which are not possible. But the distinction is really all in our heads. It is a sort of arbitrary distinction. You might even call it existencist, by analogy with speciesism.

It is not that logically possible entities "exist" and logically impossible entities "don't exist." My thesis could more aptly be stated as the idea that we are biased towards thinking that logically consistent entities are in some sense more real, and therefore are due more ethical consideration. I share this same bias, but I have moved away from it somewhat over time. In a way I have come to recognize that the bias for logically possible entities is entirely arbitary. And to the extent that I want my ethical theories to be elegant and insightful, I want to remove this type of arbitariness whenever I can.

I still want my ethical theories to do what ethical theories should do: point us in the direction of what we ought to care about. But I have experienced a sort of transformation in my thinking patterns. These days I don't think it's really that important whether a logically possible being experiences something versus a logically impossible being. I have moved away from the in-built bias and by doing so I don't want to look back.

The obvious next question is "How can we possibly influence something that doesn't exist?" In order to answer, I need to take a step back. How is it possible to influence anything? It might seem obvious that we can influence the world by our actions. Our brains naturally run a script which allows us to consider various counterfactuals and then act on the world based on its models. This seems intuitive, but again we introduce a metaphysical confusion just by talking about counterfactuals in this way.

In a deterministic universe there is no such thing as a counterfactual. There is simply that which happened, or that which will occur. Our mistake is assuming that there is ontological content contained in our ideas of counterfactuals. Yet somehow we are able to imagine counterfactuals without them actually existing. The exact mechanism of how this occurs is not well understood, and a solution to it could be one of the largest successes in decision theory today. Regardless, it should give us some pause to consider the idea that influencing the world is not as straightforward as it first appears.

In my view, I think about influencing something as playing a sort of symbiotic role with that entity. This is part poetry, and part real decision theory. Let's say that I wanted to produce one paperclip. Given that whether I actually produced the paperclip is just a fact about the environment, in some sense I am making no real decision. In another sense, if I do make the paperclip, then I am playing a role in the causal web of reality, having certain attributes which look from an inside view as "making a paperclip." This model is important because it allows us to view actions in a much broader scope. Many people, I believe, are confused by functional decision theory for similar reasons as the ones I have described. They ask how it is possible to influence something which happened in the past, or perhaps in another universe. I offer my model to reduce their confusion. I see that I am one such entity in the vast space of logical entities which are composed of logical parts, and I am playing an ethical role. Different logical pieces necessarily play different roles, but this is the role that I play. Rather than affecting things by having a causal influence on the world, I am connected to others by my logical link to them.

How could we possibly sum up everyone who doesn't exist and decide the method to affect them? This question appears intractable except when you consider that we already do it with multiverse intuitions. Many people have proposed that we should take an Occam-like measure over the ultimate ensemble, and then do our multiverse trading under this assumption. This Occam-like assumption for measure should not be construed as a metaphysical claim, but should be viewed more like a bias towards simpler mathematical structures. One can instead have a different measure. The number of measures that we can come up with is simply breathtaking. It may feel cold and arbitrary to abandon Occam-like reasoning in the multiverse. What else could we replace it with?! However, this is just the human bias of ambiguity aversion. Consider that before we had no problem with using Occam's razor. Now, we feel more uncertain choosing a measure. But just because our confusion has been unveiled doesn't mean that we should feel any less like we are actually doing good. The idea that Occam's razor had to do with the metaphysical was simply a mistake we made. Whether we used the razor or not would not have actually changed the reality in which we live. At least now that we realize Occam's razor is more like a personal bias, we have the option of returning to it like before without confusion. We should not fear ambiguity in our universe. Ambiguity is what gives humans choice, even if it seems arbitrary.

So what sort of measure do I have in mind? I don't really know. I haven't worked out the details. But I am hesitant to endorse something that gives weight to simple structures, either logically consistent or inconsistent. Simplicity leaves out a ton of structures which I feel could be in a lot of pain.

What we can do

In my discussion I have noticeably neglected to give any solid recommendations for how we can affect those which do not exist. The reasons for this are twofold

  • It's not really clear at the moment what we can do. We are still too confused. However, we shouldn't be afraid to widen our moral circles, even if we aren't sure what to do yet. Widening our moral circles is an asymmetric good. If we widen them too far then we can always pull back at a later point when we have concluded that there really is nothing we can do. If we don't widen them enough then we become OK with atrocities like factory farming and suffering risks.
  • Anything which can help their suffering is likely to be done much better by artificial intelligence, or other types of outsourced cognitive effort.

From these reasons, I see some potential avenues for improving the lives of those who don't exist. We can add this to our checklist, and make sure that whenever we are making decisions about the future that we should include the welfare of the non-existent. If we are developing methods of value learning, perhaps an additional question would be, "Could this value learning scheme ever care about beings who don't exist?" I am skeptical that certain entities will end up in our moral circle by default, and I am especially skeptical that entities which don't exist will end up there unless we make an active effort to ensure that possibility.

Studying logical uncertainty and more generally mathematical fields which give us insight into reality could help. The easiest thing now I think is just getting the idea out there and seeing what people have to say. Spreading the idea is half the battle.


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What LRG Skates on:

Need advice on what skates and pads to buy? Upgraded your skates/pads/wheels and want to sell the old ones? Want to let the new girls know they can borrow your sweaty old kneepads? This is the place.

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Kamikaze Kitten
Posts: 3639
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:45 pm
Location: messin' about on the river.

Re: What LRG Skates on:

Post by Kamikaze Kitten »

Kamikaze Kitten

Skate - Size 5 Reidell 965 boot (too big- about to mount up size 4.5 split last 595 boot)
Plate -130mm Roll Line Mistral plate with transparent blue cushions.
Toestops - Roll Line toestop
Knee Pads - Rector Fatboys (my Smith's scabs cracked)
Knee Gaskets - None
Elbow pads - Anarchy size M (too big)
Wristguards - SFR Small
Helmet - A variety depending on what day it is.
Main Wheels: Atom Jukes (alu hubs)
Other wheels: Atom Poisons for COLA worn on the front with Jukes on the back.

Now moved to size 4.5 split last 595 boot and couldn't be happier with it.
Last edited by Kamikaze Kitten on Thu May 26, 2011 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What LRG Skates on:

Post by Vagablonde »

Skate - Size 7 Reidell 265 boot (too big)
Plate - Size 5 Dynapoop
Toestops - Sure Grip Gripper Black
Knee Pads - Smith Scabs S/M
Knee Gaskets - Smith Scabs
Elbow pads - 187 Fly Elbow Pads
Wristguards - TSG Small
Helmet - Nutcase S
Main Wheels - Heartless: White, Yellow, Green, Black
Other wheels -
Indoor: Radar Mojo Pink and just bought Juke Alloy Pink, Yellow & Purple
Outdoor: Kryptonics True (which I also use indoors at Cola when it's like ice)
Bearings - Bones Swiss 6

I am currently in the process of upgrading my skates so will put the new list up soon.
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auntie terror
Posts: 6964
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:15 am
Team: Steam Rollers
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Re: What LRG Skates on:

Post by auntie terror »

Auntie Terror

Skate: Bont Quad Racer (vegan) - size 4.5
Plate: Sure Grip Invader DA-45 size 0 - mounted Short/Forward (I love the S/F mount)
Wheels: Atom Dubz 93a and Atom Low Boys 95a - narrow
Bearings: Bones Reds
Knee Pads: Rector Fat Boys
Knee Gaskets: Anarchy
Elbow Pads: Pro Tec slim profile with butterfly closure
Wrist Guards: 187
Helmet: SFR
Exception: At Earl's Court I used Radar Evo 95a wheels with Qube 8-ball bearings and a Triple 8 Brain Saver helmet.

Skate: Riedell 265 white with black stripes - size 4.5
Plate: Dynapro Nylon with 10 degree trucks - standard mount
Wheels: Atom Pulse
Bearings: Bones Reds

Other wheels
Atom G-Rods standard width and Atom Poisons narrow width. I heart Atom Wheels.
Steam Roller, Rec League trainer, Jr League task force member, occasional announcer, loud american

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Jess Holland
Posts: 3379
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:20 pm

Re: What LRG Skates on:

Post by Jess Holland »

skate: size 4 965
plate: reactor
wheels: atom jukes or poisons (both slim)
bearings: bones red
knee pads: 187s size S
elbow pads: 187s
helmet: nutcase
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Ylva Arnberg
Posts: 2454
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:48 pm

Re: What LRG Skates on:

Post by Ylva Arnberg »

I am in the process of breaking in new skates... Old skates have served me fine but wanted to try something new...

Old skates: Riedell 265 Vandal package (vinyl plate) size US 7
New boot: Riedell 595 narrow size US 7
New plates: Sure Grip XK-DA45 size 2 (shortish forward mount), blue cushions (softest)
Toe Stops: Gumballs
Knee pads: Smith Scabs
Gaskets: Smith Scabs & Gladiator (prefer gladiator as scabs fell apart first go)
Elbow pads: Smith Scabs
Wristguards: 187 Killer
Helmet: Triple 8 Brainsaver S/M, Protec S/M, Nutcase M
Main Wheels: Atom Dubz 93a, Atom Lowboys, Atom Poisons (all narrow)
Bearings: Bones Super Reds
Outdoor wheels: Purple Airwaves
Last edited by Ylva Arnberg on Wed May 18, 2011 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shaolynn Scarlett
Posts: 2743
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:00 am
Location: London

Re: What LRG Skates on:

Post by Shaolynn Scarlett »

Lol! 2011 me ain’t got nothing on 2018 me.

Skate - Riedell Blue Streak customised (finger loop, set back eyelet)
Plate - Powerdyne Arius platinum, royal blue cushions
Toestops - Powerdyne Jupiter
Knee Pads - Deadbolt Apex
Elbow pads - 187 (standard)
Wristguards - 187 Derby
Helmet - S1
Wheels - Radar Prestos 91 or 88
Bearings - Kwik Ceramic
Shaolynn Scarlett 888 | she/her
*doesn’t even go here anymore*
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Messages - jeroen88

Pages: [1]
Proxy Questions / Re: Windows XP & Vista Connection Limit Patch
« on: September 11, 2009, 10:54:04 AM »
Hi, how can i redo the process so i have the same settings as before?

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Connect the Puck.js to The Things Network using a Pycom LoPy

  • 0_1491760974305_Puck.js_board.jpg
    The Puck.js is a BLE enabled button with built in thermometer, light and battery level sensors. I combined the example code available for the Puck.js and the LoPy so that when you press the Puck.js, it connects via BLE to the LoPy and sends it the current thermometer, light and battery level. The LoPy then posts that data to The Things Network.

    Code etc. available online here.

  • @PiAir Very nice, thanks for sharing!

  • Thanks Jose! I added the info to the blog post (with credits of course). The Puck.js doesn't have support for NRF.setScanResponse() yet either. That is planned for the next (major) firmware update.
    The Puck.js has some other nice features though once you start playing with BLE, for example by default it has TX/RX services over BLE (with optional password) so you can reprogram it remotely over BLE, or simply switch the LED lights ON/OFF over BLE -
    An example use would be something like a message waiting button that blinks if messages are waiting and once pressed, over BLE connects to another device to tell it to start reading the messages of something like that.

  • Great write up! I always love new BLE examples :-)

    Just a note on the UUID stuff you found. The UUID on LoPy and the Puck are just two different ways to store the same thing, though the Puck is usually the 'standard' way.

    I have a little helper function which given the standard (Puck.js) way, converts it to the LoPy:

    def uuid2bytes(uuid):
        uuid = uuid.encode().replace(b'-',b'')
        tmp = binascii.unhexlify(uuid)
        return bytes(reversed(tmp))

    You can then use it as

    srv1 = bluetooth.service(uuid=uuid2bytes('15ECCA29-0B6E-40B3-9181-BE9509B53200'), isprimary=True)

    Since this is your own custom service it's best if you generate your own new UUID, otherwise other devices might be confused if they scan by service (a very common way sadly not yet supported by LoPy)

    You can use the uuidgen command to get your own on Linux or Mac or through one of the many UUID generator sites like

Pycom on Twitter


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Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:01 pm

Installation Update

Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:35 am

Windows installation.

When you install an updated version of S3D it retains the same name in the de-install list as previous versions (just 'Simplify3D'). So when you decide to remove the unwanted version there is no indication of the version number in the de-install program list - and that means you might de-install the wrong version. When I am offered an updated version of S3D I always keep the old version installed just in case I need to roll back, and de-install the old version when I am satisfied the new version hasn't broken anything.

Could consideration please be given to the software installation adding the version number to the program name in the de-install list? This is typical for other software (for example SQL Server or Microsoft Office) which give both the program name and the version number in the de-install list.

As a point of note, running the uninstall.exe program in the directory you want to de-install pops up a confirmation dialog - that dialog does not include the version number!

This is simply a cosmetic change involving an installation script - no functional change to the software is required.
Posting as a private individual - 3D printing is a hobby activity.
Creality CR-10S owner.

Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:39 pm

Re: Installation Update

Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:29 pm

I agree with this completely. However, I would also add the following to the installation package:
1. an option to "Install over previous" with the new version OR add an "uninstall previous version" post install of the new version

I understand that for production/commercial usage, having unchanging/protected software and settings is extremely important. However, for people who also use it for hobbies or personal projects, most of these people will not want several copies of the software on their computer.

2. A "Clean Install" option to completely overwrite(including settings/profiles). This will help people who had failed installs/uninstalls, currently have a non-functioning install, and need to basically reset the software.

Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:46 pm

Re: Installation Update

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:44 pm

I agree with the choices given by the last poster.

Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:52 pm

Re: Installation Update

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:31 pm

Great discussion guys!

I'll be sharing your ideas with our developers.

Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:46 pm

Re: Installation Update

Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:57 am

I would also like the updater to actually let us know when there is an update - especially if I manually run the check. 4.0 to 4.0.1 is a prime example of the updater being worse than useless - it made me think I had the latest version when I did not.

Return to “Feature Requests”


text:
RS232/UDP input messages

Is it possible in DragScript to receive an RS232 message (or UDP packet) and use the message to set an EVENT or the value of a variable. Even better would be to put a DragScript command in the RS232 message and when received by Voyager, would be executed in the script.

For example, a 3rd party application may be performing image analysis in real time and determine that there is a problem and to abort the current running sequence. Another example is DragScript is running a sequence and a 3rd party application based on achieving some result now wants to abort the sequence and start a new one.

I cannot add in this way , i cannot add another server to Voyager.
There is the Application server is running, i can add an external command dedicated to DragScript, please take a list of command you need to understand on how to tansform in Json command for the server that can be processed from DragScript.

All the best

I looked at the Application server documentation and I believe it will do everything I need. If not I will come back and see if we can add a new Remote command. But so far it looks good. Thanks Leo.


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  1. MusicMan05

    Why Are Gold Weapons So Bad?

    The Unique gold weapons aren't that great. Gold tier versions of standard weapons are better than their orange tier versions. They have more damage, durability, and an extra repair.
  2. MusicMan05

    The Latest Patch Issues

    The Enhanced Edition added Night Hunters as regular night enemies along with the Volatiles. One thing I've noticed is an increase in Night Hunters after the latest patch. Before it was usually 1 Night Hunter with 2-3 Volatiles. Now it's 2-3 Night Hunters with 1 Volatile. This makes playing at night on Night almost impossible. Nighttime no longer awards any experience for surviving the night, so there's really no point to playing at night on Nightmare. Techland could you consider buffing the Legendary Skills to the following percentages: Melee +10% Throwing +15% Firearms +20% That way players can be more lethal against the Infected on Nightmare, and have an incentive for leveling legendary. This would prevent Firearms from being the go to Nightmare weapon as melee weapons would be effective too.
  3. MusicMan05

    March Patch

    Except it is nice to give friends 10-20 packages to help them level their Survivor Skill Tree.
  4. MusicMan05

    I'm Left A Unsure About This Latest Patch?

    Why are you attempting to correct Night Hunters as Night Walkers? I wasn't talking about Night Walkers, Virals or Biters anywhere in my post. As for making Nightmare easier, buffing the Legendary Skill damage would make it easier as you level up, adding a sense of progression for players who already have the best gear. Meanwhile players that like the high hp zombies can opt out of buffing their damage by respecing and not investing points into the damage skills if they feel it's too easy/boring.
  5. MusicMan05

    I'm Left A Unsure About This Latest Patch?

    They patch broke more than it fixed. Here's what changes I've noticed that aren't listed in the patch notes: -Can't share crate drops (This was due to players duplicating them to max their Legendary Level in a short period of time) -Legendary Firearm skill nerfed. I was hoping they'd balance out the weapons on Nightmare by increasing the bonus to melee/throwing while slightly lowering the Firearm bonus. Instead they nerfed Firearms hard so know your damage output will never be high enough to fight the Infected on Nightmare.. At this point what's the point in Legendary Levels? Our characters are already strong enough to fight the Infected on Normal/Hard. I figured the skills would eventually allow players to be almost as powerful against the Infected on Nightmare as they are on Hard once one of the damage skill was maxed, but that's not the case now. -Survive the Night Bonus Exp. Prior to the patch I was getting a few hundred thousand experience for staying out the entire night. Now I receive 0 exp for surviving the night. What's the point in playing at night when: 1.) We don't receive the survival bonus and 2.) We'll never be strong enough to fight the Night Hunters and Volatiles on Nightmare due to the nerf. The double Agility exp is hardly worth anything, so farming The Stuffed Turtle and turning in the Disaster Relief Packages is the only good way of farming Legendary exp now. (Hopefully they don't lower the Exp Reward for turning in Relief Packages in the next update....) -Loot drop rates. After the Enhanced Edition patch I found 1 gold weapon and a handful of Orange weapons in GRE quarantine chests on Nightmare. After the latest patch I'm primarily finding white/green weapons and found 2 blues and 1 purple. This was after 10 runs of Stuffed Turtle (20 chests), and 4 runs of Sunnyside Apartments (20 chests) plus multiple hard/very hard locked containers on the Infamy Bridge on Nightmare. Opening 50+ chests and primarily finding Whites/Greens doesn't feel right compared to before. Of course I could just be having extremely bad luck with the RNG. -Increased number of Night Hunters. The last few times I tried staying out at night testing the Survive/Escape exp rewards I had 2-3 Night Hunters and 1 Volatile pursuing me each time. Prior to the patch it was usually 1 Night Hunter and 2-3 Volatiles. I'm not sure if this was a result of the patch, or if I just had unlucky spawns. -The Camouflage skill still doesn't Camouflage the player from Volatiles/Night Hunters -Community Made Maps. We were supposed to receive 4 yet we can only play 2. The Tunnel is also labeled as Under the City. I feel like the latest patch did more harm than good.
  6. MusicMan05

    Damage Lower Is Insane

    That's because you're playing on Hard. The damage on Nightmare is where players are having an issue. The high damage guns were the only way of taking down Night Hunters. With a 500% boost, a 15,300 damage pump shotgun would still take me over a full clip (8+ rounds) to kill a Night Hunter, and there was still a huge risk that it, or a Volalite, Viral or Night Walker would quickly kill me costing me all the experience I had currently gained. Now it'll take 25 Firearm points and 2+ clips (16+ rounds) to kill one Night Hunter, which is unlikely to happen as you'll likely be dead long before that point. Currently Nightmare is a challenge, but it's far from being balanced. To balance it back out Legendary Levels should allow a fighting chance on Nightmare. Meanwhile players that want to keep the difficulty as hard as when they first started can opt out of using Legendary Skills, which would be a win/win.
  7. MusicMan05

    Patchnotes For Xbox / Pc?

    They also fixed replaying quarantine zones. (The Enhanced Edition patch broke the original fix.) We are missing two of the community maps they advertised though, and one of the ones we did get appears to have the wrong name.
  8. MusicMan05

    Damage Lower Is Insane

    And maybe increase the melee weapon bonus up from +4%. I think the following would be reasonable: Melee +10% up 6% Throwing +15% up 7% Firearms +20% up 10% Bows +40% This way the strongest weapons could look something like this: -Pump Shotgun ~ 15,000 damage instead of 8,750 damage -Katana ~ 7,500 damage instead of 5,000 damage -Bozak Bow ~ 4,500 damage -Modern Throwing Axe ~ 1,000 damage instead of 600 damage
  9. According to the trailer patch 1.10 was supposed to add: The Tunnel (Under the City) The Hunter Climb Down to 21 Teevee Instead all we got was The Tunnel and Climb Down to 21. I'm also assuming The Tunnel being called Under the City is also a mistake.
  10. MusicMan05

    Damage Lower Is Insane

    Unfortunately for console players restoring it via mods is not an option. We're stuck unless Techland decides to change it again in the next update.
  11. MusicMan05

    Night-Walkers In Daytime? [Bug]

    I don't care about who you are, and I rarely pay attention to the poster when replying. I'm replying to the information that's posted as being incorrect. And the developers wouldn't have noticed a major bug during testing?... What would you call the double van door bug, and other bugs that were addressed in the latest update. Not everything is caught right away. If the Night Walkers were always ment to behave this way, then how come they didn't until after the Enhanced Edition update? Their behavior of changing after dusk was changed in the base game as well, and not just in the Following. Isn't it a little odd that they'd completely change their behavior a year after the game released? It's also like the bug introduced in one of the updates that causes Virals to chase after you when you haven't made any loud noises.
  12. MusicMan05

    Damage Lower Is Insane

    I figured the bonuses where to help out in Nightmare. At 500% it was still taking a few rounds to kill a Volalite and a full clip to kill Night Hunters with the Engraved Pump Shotgun. I didn't get far enough to see how many rounds it would take to download a Demolisher on Nightmare... Now the gun will be doing half the damage I was originally doing once the skill maxed. Looks like they don't want us killing the big guys on Nightmare. I think lowering it to +500% would have been more reasonable than +250%. This nerf was unfair. For those that were complaining about it being OP, all they had to do was respect their Legendary Tree and not max the Firearms Skill. Instead everyone is forced to change how they were playing prior to this latest patch.
  13. MusicMan05

    Disaster Relief Guy Not Giving Exp.

    Was it changed in the patch? I thought he would only give Reputation points for the Followers, but at max reputation he would award Survivor exp.
  14. MusicMan05

    Night-Walkers In Daytime? [Bug]

    I've watched the old videos and the only time you see the Biters change into Night Walkers is after the sun is setting. The original explanation was that as the sun sets the Infected grow stronger. (Which is a result of the lack of UV light.) I've also noticed in the past that Night Walkers, just like Night Hunters and Volatiles don't like UV lights. If I stood near the UV lights of a safe zone the Volatiles and Night Walkers would remain at bay, while the Biters and Virals approach like normal. The rising of the Sun would then send them scurrying away, and put the Night Walkers back to their more docile Biter form, as the Volatiles sought out dark zones. Now when the Sun rises the Night Hunters and Volatiles run away seeking dark zones, but the Night Walkers remain Night Walkers. It's like the Enchanted Edition is causing them not to register the Sun's UV light and behave like Virals once they turn. (Before they had to stare at the sun setting before they could turn into a Night Walker... which made hanging around Biters at sunset interesting because you would never know if some of the Biters around you would change and come running after you once they were finished watching the sunset.)
  15. The Volalite Hives have some form of connection with the Night Hunters. Destroying the Hives the Night Hunter protects is how you win a Be the Zombie match. Also OP, the country side is Haran as far as I know. Haran isn't just a City, it's a City State. So nuking the country side is nuking Haran. As far as Ground Zero for the infection, Old Town is Quarantine Zone Zero, while the Slums was Quarantined off next followed by all of Harran. The Dam can't be Ground Zero, as you claim, when the outbreak started in Old Town, aways away from the Dam. (But they Dame could be "Ground Zero" for the infection spreading into Harran's Countryside and what's causing the new, stronger Infected types.) We know, the Mother, and her husband the Colonel, were Infected after the inital outbreak. The chemical substance, your "source," could have been created as a result of the testing done inside the Stadium after the outbreak. Also all of the Infected Species cannot be a result of that chemical. The Bolters were a result of Dr Zere's research. Some of the other Infected types could have been a result of tests done inside the Harran Stadium. Oh, and the Mother didn't just turn and kill the Faceless. She killed everyone in the Dam, Faceless and Rais' men, to prevent Rias' men from getting their hands on the chemical. The ending where Kyle takes the elixir shows him exit outside of the Harran Quarantine Zone, and into the neighboring country. In some ways this could be the best option because: Option 1: Detonate a Nuke in Harran. There's a good chance the virus won't be destroyed and the radiation could trigger worse mutations. The blast could even spread the Virus out of the Quartier Zone, infecting people outside of Harran. Option 2: Kyle escapes the Quarantine Zone, but as Volatile. There's a high chance he'll spread the infection and not survive the night. If he survives the night he'd likely try finding a way back to Dr Camden. Having access to the chemical that caused the sentient mutation and a willing test subject, Dr Camden could finally get the break he needed for creating a cure after all. A few questions I have are: Was Kaan part of the Haran military? Was he in contact with Rais? Did he send his man into the Slums to find out why Rais went radio silent again?


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  1. Not sure if anyone read through the most recent newsletter from planetmu... I know it's not MUCH/I'm grasping at straws here... but maybe, just maybe Mike is hinting at an upcoming album? From the newsletter/update: "µ-Ziq a.k.a Mike Paradinas, the founder and owner of Planet Mu will be playing a live set of mainly new unreleased material recorded in the last couple of months. Or maybe he will DJ Chicago Footwork, he too will decide on the night, that's the beauty of live sets by autonomous beings." Thoughts? If anyone has links to new material after the show plays that would be great. Edit: does he play unreleased material of his at his sets often?
  2. which do u think is overall better??? imo burger kind is better it is not even close but mcdonalds still is OK here is my pros and cons mcdonalds: pros: mcnuggets mcflurrys they have cool guys (grimace, fry guys etc) cons: they put onions on ur burger bk: pros: better fries the king is cool seeds on the bun cons: the king is like there only guy
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Yuyao Smile Electrical Appliance Co.,Ltd. focuses on top quality 12V /24V DC electric products for many years in China. We started as a small operation, and now we are growing up. Beginning we only get one client, now more and more…
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Discussion in 'CivRev - Multiplayer' started by ironfistvk, Aug 3, 2009.

  1. ironfistvk

    ironfistvk Chieftain

    Aug 3, 2009
    Hi am currently using Civ4 (vanilla) 1.74 version and am looking for ancient med mod thats compatible with that version. I do have one but its single player map. Am looking for a MP map. If anyone can point out where I can download one thats compatible with my version for MP will appreciate it a lot. Thank you.
  2. Sn1p3rk1ll3

    Sn1p3rk1ll3 Warlord

    Oct 31, 2008
    Turnhout, Belgium
    I think you should be in the Civ 4 forum....this is civrev.

    I don't have civ 4 so I'm affraid I won't be usefull to reply :D

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Moraghan Training - Stevie G

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Good luck tomollocks Jools!
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    Cheers SG. Not sure how you got tomollocks though :D
    Just seen that entries close next Sunday for that Race for Victory 5K in Cardiff you fancied on May 5th.
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Woodley double for me this weekend as I'd not been to the pancake flatlands where Dachs resides for a while. First the parkrun yesterday which was a very encouraging 18'16 for 5th and a WAVA over 85%. No idea where that came from really as I didn't wear VF's and have been struggling to creep under 19 on other courses lately. I always seem to go well at Woodley though and I think confidence is an underrated factor in running. Only 8 seconds off a park run pb and made me think sub 18 might be on at Battersea this summer if we get any cool days for races.

    Back to Woodley today for their 10k. Great race conditions about 5 degrees with no wind and clear skies. Its the sort of race I love; about 600 runners but you can park right next to the start and don't need to pitch up till about 30 mins before the off. Got off to a good start which was a bit downhill and through a k in 3'28. My problem (apart from starting too fast!) was that I already had a lace undone (immediately thinking of Joe and Wokingham ;)) but it didn't seem to be slowing me or likely to cause a trip so I just carried on. Stayed in a little group of 4 as we raced through k's in about 3'40 but was gradually getting dropped.

    Come about 5k the the big cock up :o ; the course takes a left turn to do a small loop up and down a side road before re-joining the main road (presumably to make the distance correct) and I didn't realise and carried straight on. It was only about 120 metres on I realised as the group in front of me were now behind and I had new people in front. Bugger! Quickly decided I'd better turn round and do the missing loop so overall added another .25k. From there I just carried on thinking I may as well push hard and see how close to a pb I would have been. Kept a decent pace and was through 10k on my Garmin in 37'26 which would just have been a pb but with the extra I ended in 38'18.

    Lessons learnt are to tie my laces properly and more to the point to listen to marshals and watch where runners in front go! Still good enough for 1st v50 and a nice trophy, but definitely an opportunity missed in absolutely perfect conditions on a super fast course.
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Damn, Pete, that's bloody annoying! Still a cracking time, but that PB would have been sweet!
    Great parkrun too (still don't know how you can cope/seemingly excel with the double!).

    Four full days off this week, with an easy, but very nice off roader to Bamburgh Friday followed by an exceedingly tough run round some hills in the Cheviots yesterday, including the Cheviot itself.   Just 9.5M, but with 2800 feet of climbing and miles of peat bogs to trudge through, my legs now feel like those 4 days off were months ago!

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭
    Afternoon all. My plan of reading and posting here more regularly has not entirely worked out.

    However, many congratulations to Stevie W for a fantastically executed race. Those are impressive splits. Can't beat a well judged marathon, at least thats what I suspect, having never run a well judged marathon.

    Pete, almost a great double in the magical flatlands of Woodley. Sounds like you tried to run the old route. They avoid that now as it involves narrow pavements on a busy road. Sounds like you're in great form anyway.

    I've missed loads of course, but can't not mention World MF Champion Dean Richardson! What a performance! I knew him before he was famous you know.

    So, I've not been running. 3 weeks ago, I had a bit of a stomach ache, and wondered why it had gone on for 24 hours. Well, it turns out it was appendicitis, so 12 hours after wandering into the walk in clinic, I was being prepped for surgery. Upshot is, no running for 4-6 weeks post surgery, so I've got another week until I can tentatively start back. Didn't mind the rest at first, but now I'm getting a bit frustrated. Never been out for more than 2 weeks before.

    Therefore missed out on the Brighton 10k this morning. May be back for the Staines 10k, but who knows in what form. Missed being in Brighton to see my clubmate Rob run a mind blowing 2:19 marathon, taking 8 minutes off his PB and our club record. Inspiring stuff.

  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    I saw that 2:19 on Strava, he faded in the last 5k too so might have gone even quicker with a tweak to the pacing.
    What's the weight saving on an appendix, marginal gain?
    Shame about the error Pete but you've another few shots at that PB I am sure. Maybe we can both crack it at the Royal Berks 10k.
    Hope it went well Jools, not seen the result yet.
    Im in France visiting my dad so just doing a few random runs, nothing of interest.

  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    14mph headwind from 21M which became worse from 23M as we were on the prom Reg so no surprise he ‘faded’ in the final 5K
    I had a complete breakdown. Not sure why tbh. 2 nights of very poor sleep certainly didn’t help the mental game. I was 15s down at halfway & knew I’d been working too hard to negative split especially with the final 5M being into a 14 mph headwind.
    Right piriformis tightened up & became painful as we got to 15 which was then joined by right hip flexor then left. By 17 I was jog/walking. Saw Joe about 19 but even his motivational powers failed to rouse me. 20M in 2:28 then final 10K was 70 minutes! Once over the line I picked my bag up but had to be dressed by St John’s as I was laid out looking far from healthy then went to fulfil my lab rat duties however once they’d taken my bloods the Dr in charge sent me to their medical team for a lie down & some obs as I was feeling nauseous & looked like I might’ve passed out! About 20 minutes later I went to the toilet to provide a urine sample which took so long they were banging on the door to check I’d not keeled over before having an ECG & further blood pressure/pulse/body composition measurements. Turns out I’d lost over 5lbs since Friday.
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Sounds like a nightmare Jools, well done for toughing it out, hope you recover well. Looking at Rob's Strava he looks to have faded, his HR goes up mile 22 obviously trying to keep the pace but then drops off 20 beats in 2 miles. Crazy when you see a 15:48 5k split in there and even slowing down in the last 5km it's a 17:1x split. He's beaten my 5k PB 7 times in that run.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    Great combo there Pete. I'm still thinking sub 20 minutes for me would be handy.

    Hope you recover fast Dachs. Abebe Bikila won the Olympic Marathon only about 3 weeks after the same procedure.

    Tough race Jools. I looked back though the posts and saw some signs even before three weeks back when you struggled in that HM. Hope you recover quickly.
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    edited April 2019
    I’d agree that things hadn’t been going great for about 4 weeks Ric, starting with the really bad gut issues in that 20M race. 2 days later I had that nasty bike accident. The half was the following weekend. In retrospect I’d probably have been better off taking that week off to recuperate from the smash & then having less of a taper.
    The right piriformis/hip flexor has been niggly for a long time but I suspect the fell race a fortnight ago aggravated it so much even 2 very light weeks failed to settle it. I’d certainly felt it when doing anything speedier than recovery pace. 10 days ago I’d had to jump off the treadmill after 500m whilst warming up as it was so painful. I rolled & stretched it for about 10 minutes then got back on & did a decent 10K session with 6x800 off 400 jog without further incident.
    I’ll not be doing anything more strenuous than walking for a couple of days. Might manage a swim tomorrow.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Well battled Jools - sorry to hear it ended with a bit of misery! Long distance animals like you having these sort of experiences, plus my once in a half, are definitely why I wouldn't want to race one.... (maybe one day jogging one out for giggles!)

    Dachs - wow, that's an annoying one, and shows how health issues can floor even superfit guys! Speedy recovery old son.

    Bus - your heaven sounds my hell - i'd be hyperventalating on that incline!

    Pete - classic double. Annoying with the extra - but I always slightly chuckle at your belief in distances being exact to your GPS! I think we'd all have faster pbs if our watches were 100%!
    But, you seem to be at peak form at the moment - irrespective of the shoes - I see this quite a bit, people put too much down to the shoes, when it's their training/form that is top notch - so i'm sure you can get that down soon.
  • Just a quick one from me

    Dachs & Jools I hope you both are better and running again soon. PeteM - Brilliant double, I know from the Aylesbury 5k about going the wrong way! Good WAVA too.

    Scotty - great to see you on the comeback trail.

    Me - Lovely weather in Bromley 20 mions before my 800m on Saturday, then black clouds came over. Suffice to say I had to run it in a hailstorm, actually managed to eat 2 of them during the race! A real 'I was there' moment everyone said. Utterly ridiculous.

    The first 2 went out fast, and that's where I couldn't get going - it was so cold and I went through the bell in about 66, also like most of us running 200m with just one eye open due to the hail! Managed 3rd in 2.11 by the end. Interesting at least - we were all comparing the weather to the first xc, basically running in a windy sauna - perhaps the xc and track seasons start too early?

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    Jools, you had a 20 mile race, a HM race and a Fell race on consecutive weekends and then two weeks later, a Marathon!

    SG, note the above.

    Sounds a bit tougher training than I'd deem necessary.

    My first marathon came off no more adjustment than doing a longer Sunday run than usual. And that was only about once every six weeks. Stuff the mileage. If I could do what I was able to do already (boot it for 2:45) why bother?

    Session today. Repeat of last week. I'd clearly improved.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    Well that killed it.
  • ioweriower ✭✭✭
    Quick catch up - good to see you back Scott! Speedy recovery Dachs (not one to rush to be honest mind you) I'm sure you'll be back before you know it. Sorry to hear Jools, time to take some recovery time for a bit before getting back into it?

    I've not run since Manchester - felt ok within a few days but I'm still conscious of the shin not feeling quite right at times (well, Tib or Fib, not sure) so I've stuck to the bike and gym. Build a bit of strength back up and give the bones a bit of time to chill out and heal then I'll try a gentle run round the park next week hopefully.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    Well, good luck that iower. The main thing is to not make them any worse.

    Currently, my policy of only running every other day is paying off. The session I did yesterday didn't leave me feeling like I've just finished a tough HM.

    I'm still doing the 'in house', stuff, though at half volume. Bike later.

    Two or three sessions each week plus a long run seems to cover the running bases.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Right, if Ric, you've stopped abusing poor Jools, I have a turnout to report on.

    Give a brother 30 to get a good piece on paper, and a few little pics too.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    edited April 2019

    Maidenhead 10miler

    Entered this one a couple of weeks ago, but thought i'd have a more low key build up, to avoid a repeat of GSR and Wokey 2019!

    I missed this one ill last year, so in the last 3 long distance races I'd entered, i'd only turned up to one, and that was the GSR underwhelming one. Therefore, I thought i'll keep this quiet, and just get there this time!

    Having not done this race since 2011, and not got below 60.48, it gave me a perfect pressure free race to set a few targets, ranging from "dreamworld" of a 58:xx, through to beating GSR, to sub 60, to at least beating 60.48.

    With talk of the weather ramping up, I knew the top end wouldn't be doable, so I replaced that with "get round" as a 5th option ;)

    A load of Dashers were there, but not a club champ race. Perfect scenario really, as was the mere 25mins or so drive. I do love a race hoon, but sometimes something local is just the ticket.

    Earlier this week I was a little concerned at how humid even slow runs were, but realised, if it's that hard conditions, you can always choose to reign it in accordingly. If you don't, the conditions will do it to you!

    I always enjoyed this race in Marlow days, doing it 5 years out of 6 between 2006-2011, so looked forward to experiencing it again.

    The course is quite an unusual set up - starts in a business park (perfect for parking - pure perfection - a massive empty business park!!).

    One lap of the BP - out down the entry road to a roundabout, round it, back to the business park, another lap, back out down that road, then around 4miles you slide off and the real quiz begins.

    Nicely flat, bar a bit of an awkward 9th mile, that has a little bridge crossing, and some twisty slightly offroad stuff, and a sort of trailly field to get across.

    Before a glorious half mile back down the original road, and then half mile in the (you've guessed it!!!) business park.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Perfect bit of outdoor shrubbery right next to the start line made for some last min relief, and to the start line then.

    A nice early 9.30am start, meant I should be finishing by the time the GSR started. Would make a decent difference today I thought, with temps threatening to romp up by the minute.

    Therefore, the 7min delay wasn't appreciated by anyone :)

    I'm still unsure whether it was an actual hooter, or some old bloke shouting "blarrrpppp" into the mic, and we were off.

    Lineup a few rows back to not go off foolishly today, and for once, I set off fairly cautiously. Probably for one of the few times in 220+ races.

    Ric said the other day that unconfident people go off too fast, I'd say it's the opposite at times! However, it seemed the right approach.

    I recognise a few I've lost to in local series between summer and winter 2018, so I feel placed correctly.

    Then notice BIg Pete has machine gunned off, and is a good 10metres ahead. I look at my watch, and despite the sensible start, I'm suddenly at 5.38 pace and not catching him very quickly :)

    Roll up alongside and share some chat - you can do this in long distance races when you're not thrashing yourselves I find sometimes!! And we probably share around half a mile before it settled a bit, and I ease on.

    Local lad Mike Sankey is in and around as well. A chap I should normally be well ahead of, but I'm relaxed, I'm trying it the steady approach for a more enjoyable experience than the GSR attempt at flat out!

    Out on the bit towards the roundabout, there's a bit of a banter from Mike and the lads around about the 4% aspect. I say last year I missed the race, so i'm more than 4% up, before realising this is just a bit casual in a race, so ease on and leave them.

    First mile is a mere 5.57. That's a constrained start, but that needs to be the sort of base line. However, in this heat, who knows - keeping it ticking over well, but on the enjoyable side of misery is the aim today.

    It's a bit of a surreal race at times, on the out and backs, as you see everyone ahead and behind. It's all lovely and that, but on the second part back, I'm gagging for the turnoff, as i'm getting sick of shouting out well done, and name checking 100s of people :)

    Here's a pic that gives the very wrong impression that I'm winning!

    The bit out and back to the roundabout is utterly glorious smooth fast flat material. It's not all like this at Maidy, so have to try and enjoy this bit.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    edited April 2019

    I'm ticking over just under 6min miling, which is fine today I think.

    Haven't done anything beyond 4.8miles on the road since October, and in 2019 I've literally done 2x1mile, one XC in Jan, and the relays a few weeks back. I need a solid turnout to get things going - and a long distance one to make up for the Wokingham pull out.

    Past some police, and then around 4miles you turn through a normally locked gate for a lovely sweeping view across fields.

    I dare say half the field may have missed who the marshal was on the start of this stretch - only our Prime Minister - Theresea May!!

    Fairly amazing, and I said something to the chap next to me about it being too early in the race to be hallucinating.

    This did the trick, as he clearly thought if this chap is chatting ballz at this pace, then I'll let him go ;)

    Mile along this road, ticking overly nicely, and it's all feeling pretty good and comfortable. Vapors are making me feel smooth, and it's all going nicely without ruining myself.

    Gradually taking a few places here and there.

    At 5miles is switches to a lovely 3mile stretch on smooth roads, that feels slightly down, but i'm not even sure it is. Just keep ticking over the sub 6s, and I think back to GSR and how by 5-6miles I was really hanging on and pleading for the finish. Today is a completely different boat, and while I don't know how the temps/humidity measure up - today is certainly much more enjoyable.

    My favourite moment was coming up to a group of 4 working off each other, and having the decision of joining, or just easing past. Just did the latter, and never saw them again - obviously today was a day for even pacing, versus the usual out hard, settle and hold on! Certainly feels better going past people than the opposite!

    By 7miles I knew sub 60 was going to be comfortable by a good 30 or so second margin. Just needed to keep it going and see how it lay.

    I've gone past a guy who comfortably beat me in the summer 5ks last year, and on we go.

    Shared a laugh with one of Pete's teammates when a marshal said "well done Datchet, and WINDLE? with massive surprise in his voice!

    Mile 9 was the only upset, as it starts with a bridge, has some fussy rough, some windy bits, where I lost sight of the few ahead, and it was a bit solo, and then a trail bit across a field. Everyone would have lost time here, for me, probably a 10-15secs drop off.

    But then back on the glorious smooth road, pace naturally ramped up, overtook a couple of people, and without overdoing it, saw it home for a 59.28.

    3 seconds better than GSR - a completely different experience.  32/1000+ job. Must have taken 25-30places from about mile 4 on.

    Controlled - weather cautious effort without a full build up specially to it, versus a total focus, attempted flat out race that the wheels fell off and begging to end mid way.

    While Phil's strava comment about me running "well" within myself I think is a little strong, I can now be confident there's a return at least into the 58s on a cooler day.

    Interesting to try the even splitting approach. I don't think that necessarily will work on other days as there's a risk of not getting out hard enough (unless you're a top runner!), but it was effective today.

    Good to get a long race in the vapors too - before they crumble! I think that relay course was especially bad, as no further damage today to be honest.

    However, for mile to 5ks I do think I prefer the Hyperions, with their closer to the ground feel. In fairness they do bill the Vapors as a marathon shoe, and you can see why - they're for races you almost set a sort of cruise control on and just smoothly glide away.

    Looking at our top Dasher boys there today, one of our fastest guys who is a mid 55 guy did 5801, and the lads in the gang just behind the fast lot (and me!) were all well down on what they're capable of. There was certainly a fair bit of carnage out there today.

    So i'll be gutted if this doesn't give me a handicap boost on RB ;_)

    All in all though, felt great to get out there, get a turnout in, see Pete, loads of clubmates both current and past, and a perfect start to a 12 day spell off work.

    Loved doing this course again after so many years without. Set off a lot of memories.

    I think the key for me these days is while it'd be great to put in some times nearer the pbs, putting in regular turn outs, enjoying and living these races out, without getting too pressured on them is the key.

    Look forward to a stack of shorter stuff in the months ahead - bar Endure of course, but i'll treat that as a bit of a running love in with like minded nutters :)

  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    Sounds like a perfectly executed race SG. Did wonder where you’d disappeared to as thread notifications dried up 😜
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    Really well paced and executed SG, been waiting for the report all day!
    5m progression for me this afternoon, enjoyed it in the sunshine.

    Got a nice summer schedule line up now. With parkrun, track 5k, 2 road 10ks and a track 10k all lined up now
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Usual combo of a very solid run but an even better report SG🙂. It is very handy being in the same region for races as you and often doing the same ones, as it means my reports can be mere addenda.

    Anyway brief summary of Maidenhead  from me. Have entered this one far more often than I have run it due to various injuries over the years so pretty pleased to actually make the start line.

    Set off at what I thought was a normal sort of pace but confused by having SG alongside for a couple of k. My watch had them.about 3'45-3'50 so had to tell him to bugger off and speed up a bit! Once I got into the main part of the race was in a good group rattling off k's about 3'50. Missed Theresa May despite all around me saying she was there so must have been focused by then.😏 It felt very hot from early on though so knew there would be a stamina issue later. Anyway 5k at 19 mins and 10k at 38'40 both decent enough.

    Did the 11th k ok too in late 3'5x and knew I only needed a sub 20 last 5k for a pb, but from there I had to slow and soon realised that wasn't on. That uphill k about 14k over the railway bridge was the real time eater and seeing a 4'26 on the watch wasn't great. Decided I had better press as hard as poss from there and pleased to rattle off the last 2k in about 8 mins to finish in 63'20, about 65th I think but only 10th v50 as the standard in that cat was incredible today.

    Overall very happy with the result on a hot day and only 5 days after Woodley 10k.
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Nice running at Maidenhead chaps. Similar to my approach at the same race last year, except I was 59:27 :D
    I was thinking about doing it again but I forgot about it.
    Nothing interesting from me except for the diet, I've gone about 10 days now without any sweets, chocolate, cake or biscuits. Not done a great deal of mileage but I have definitely dropped a couple of kilos. If I can drop one or two more then I'll be at my lowest weight for at least 15 years.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    edited April 2019

    Well done SG & Pete on the 10's. Reports up to standard and a relief not to be reading a tale of the wheels coming off.

    SG, Ric said the other day that unconfident people go off too fast

    Not true.

    My comment wasn't about starting too fast being a sign of a lack of confidence. It was about feeling the need to 'bank time', because of the 'inevitable slowing down later', and the promoters of the idea, extolling the virtues of 'confidence gained' by having done so.

    Logic dictates that too fast a start will lead to a slowing down later. We all done that by mistake. But to do that by design is a questionable strategy.

    Anyway SG, you definitely didn't do that yesterday. A bit of speed to start with, and then easing off into the 'over-drive' region.

    After that, all you had to do is cruise along and 'reel-em-in'. Sure beats hanging on. That's what a good race should feel like.

    As for

    Past some police, and then around 4miles you turn through a normally locked gate for a lovely sweeping view across fields.

    I dare say half the field may have missed who the marshal was on the start of this stretch - only our Prime Minister - Theresea May!!

    Shame you didn't know who was here at this point. You could have asked her if this was the Br-exit?

    Reg, if you've dropped that much in only ten days of avoiding the junk. You must have built up a mountain of buried flab. Carry on for another 12 weeks and I can't imagine what that will do for your power to weight ratio. If the books are correct, you've already liberated 4 miles of blood capillaries.

    Fat is such a waste of effort.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Fair does Ric, and it was definitely a good experience. Got me wanting a bit more, rather than dreading future stuff.

    Reg chuckled at the one second.
    Why would you cut junk out just before easter! Even I'll smash a few eggs tomorrow and I'm usually monkesque!

    Sw - that sounds a nice little run ahead.
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Morning all...

    Good work at the ME 10 chaps. Interesting that the PM was indicating for everyone to go hard left....

    Sorry to hear about the operation Dachs - best wishes for a speedy recovery.

    Also bad luck for you as well Jools - sounds miserable!

    parkrun this morning. It was never going to be pretty! The 4 days off last week was followed by a 7 day in a row stretch of running, which was actually going well, but a 340M drive on Wednesday followed by 2 days of re-laying a patio and re-pointing a wall has left me with severe back ache and constant pain (except when running!). I've also got no fingertips left, so typing is painful too! Even after not running yesterday, the result was 19:46 - my slowest ever time on the Rye!!!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    edited April 2019
    She was pointing right in fairness from the way she was standing.😄

    Will post a pic from a clip pete magnificently found, later with me and her in the same shot!! Mazing.

    I think you'd have been more surprised to put a tasty time in after all that. Let alone in this heat!!!

    Off for a 4 pootle rest day this week but thur was a mere 3 and should be able to go long tomorrow. If id smashed myself id normally rest two days after But should be ok . keep the miles ticking
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Yes, but that is typical of her - pointing in one direction from her perspective, but in reality asking everyone else to go the other way :smile:

    Anyway, according to the times your sub 60 wasn't that good as it was only a 10k :wink:
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    As long as rb get it right!
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