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Niko Resources - An Elephant that can gallop?

Wednesday, Apr 20 2011 by

Given there as been quite a bit of discussion about NKO following the First Energy Global Energy Conference last year, I thought it would make sense to give it its own thread.

The overview  on the company website gives access to a wealth of information on their operations. Click on each area around the globe for a v brief overview and then click in the blocks for more detail on ownership etc.

Essentially, Niko has been something of a wonder stock over the past few years based upon the success of its Indian Venture. At the core is the D6 block in the Krishna Godavria Basin where they have 10% interest. "10% is that all?" I hear you say, well in this case 10% of D6 is a lot. Current production of c170Mscf/d net to NKO and planned increases to 280M scf/d eventually.

The company has repaid its debt and is now very cash generative so the company can fund its exploration out of current cash flows even before further expansion of production (or price increase for the gas from D6).

Alongside India the company has built up an incredible acreage position in many areas as shown in the overview mentioned above.

The biggest acreage wise is Indonesia, where, IIRC, Niko is the largest acreage holder offshore.

Trinidad has also been significantly increased with further acreage acquired just this week (19/4/11).

Kurdistan is interesting, especially in the short term, where it is involved with Vast in the Qara Dagh license as operator (and 10% equity holder in Vast). News on QD is fairly short term.

And lets not forget the current "Jewel in the Crown" of India.

Oh, before we get to the tour of the NKO goodies, I should say a couple of other things. NKO also pays a dividend!! Okay, a miniscule one but its there. NKO is ISA’ able and shouldn’t pose any real trouble trading with decent liquidity, as you would expect for a $4.5bn market cap.

One of my niggles with the company though is that they are not the most transparent with regard to information. There does, however, seem to have been a realisation of this with the level of communications improving significantly of late.

Without doubt, the discovery of the giant gas fields in Block D6 in the Krishna Godavari Basin (KG) by Reliance (90%) was the making of Niko and is the foundation for the company’s current wealth of opportunities.

D6 has 40Tcf in place and is currently producing around 1.7 Bcf/d and 20k bpd of liquids. There are 23 undeveloped discoveries (with many more explo targets) in the block which will allow for further increases of gas production to the peak which is estimated to be 2.8bcf/d. However, the shares took a knock with the Q3 results due to the lower production from D6 than had been expected. This was due to a dispute (ongoing) between Reliance and the Indian Govt. over price and development.

D6 gas is sold under long term sales agreement at $4.2 per mcf as mandated by the Govt. Other producers are receiving $8 or better and end users are paying up to $11 per mcf or LNG. Obviously there is an argument for the price being higher and increased production as a result. This would be very positive for NKO’s cash flow, which, as mentioned above, already allows them to cover their planned activity across the portfolio.

A key development was the announcement of the BP deal to take a 30% in 23 of Reliance’s Indian oil and gas blocks (including the 3 in which Niko is a partner) for $7.2bn initially. This triggered an option whereby NKO can increase its own interest by 30% i.e. from 10% to 13% in D6. This is very likely to happen and would be funded by debt. Again, this is positive from cash flow and valuation metrics.

NEC25 in the Bay of Bengal is another block where NKO has 10% (with a potential to go to 13% due to BP). 15 discoveries to date with many additional explo targets.

D4 is a giant of a block at 4.2m acres. NKO have 15% (can go to 19.5% due to BP). 4,400km2 of 2D and 3,500 of 3D has been completed and a three well program is slated for this year (2011). The block is seen by many as being a potential D6 or even bigger.

India looks to be a very solid core and financial driver for NKO’s exploration program. This is what interest me most of all given the sheer scale of what is being pursued. What really interests me is the fact that the company has giant partners and has secured good farm ins from the likes of Repsol that mitigate financial exposure whilst still retaining very material stakes.

Niko have been working on Indonesia for many years now, carrying out a 400,000 km2 Multi Beam survey between Dec 2006 and April 2008. They applied their own Sea Seep technology to find seeps and then use this to focus their attention on areas where there was an active petroleum system. On top of this Niko has a database of 70,000 km of 2D, 11,000 km2 of 3D, 110,000 line km of grav and mag data, 5,000 km2 of aeromag data and over 3,000 Sea Seep geochem analysis of cores taken in relation to the multibeam survey. In short, they have a lot of data.

That isn’t enough for Niko though, they are about to start a second multibeam survey over 300,000 km2 using the latest generation equipment generated by the US Navy who developed it with one of the Niko Indonesian tech team seconded (a very good vote of confidence there). This new survey should, as a result be conducted quicker and offer better resolution. Given the attention being given to the area by the majors, agreements have been put in place to swap drilling data to the benefit of all. These companies include – Exxon, Marathon, Conoco, Statoil, Talisman, Murphy and Hess.

Another possible advantage for Niko is that they have built up their acreage via strategic acquisitions. For example Voyager Energy’s team had worked on Indonesia for much of their working careers, often with each other. Black Gold added another technical team. Of the 60 odd employees in country, 35 are techs. The majority of the team had worked together at Unocal before it was bought out by Chevron. Whilst at Unocal the team were very active, drilling roughly 150 deep water wells in SE Asia (mostly Indonesia) between 1,000m and 2,400m water depths.

We have just had the first of the announcements from the company of Independent Resource Estimates on 3 of the 16 licenses carried out by Netherland Sewell.   Further announcements on the remaining 13 licenses will be released regularly from here on in.

Prospective Resources (P50mmbbls)

Low CoS

High CoS

Mid CoS

SE Ganal

N Makassar

West Sageri

Niko has 100% WI in SE Ganal and North Makassar Strait with 50% in West Sageri.

Volume calcs were based on a 50% prob that each prospect is oil and 50% gas.

NS calculated the CoS for each prospect. Mid is Niko’s mean of low and high estimates.

That is just the first 3 blocks. The 16 blocks cover 19.7 million acres and it is the largest leaseholder other than the government. In addition, Niko is in various stages of discussions for 5 farm-ins and two bids (open tenders) that could push up the number of blocks to 23 by the end of the year (2011). Remember that Niko have always said that they would not acquire a block unless it had at least 1 bn boe potential.

The company has said that it is planning a 3 year continuous drilling program in the country from late Q4 2011, probably Q1 2012. This is just in respect of the blocks where they are the operator. Other non operated blocks will see activity, adding to the number of wells to be drilled. The Partners are, it has to be said, big – Repsol, Marathon and Exxon. Marathon’s Bone Bay well should be the first to spud.

The company should benefit from being able to offer a long term contract and so should be able to get advantageous day rates. Given the range of prospects (water depth etc) Niko will most likely draft in a second rig from time to time to tackle the shallow water wells.

Yesterday, Niko announced that it has signed three new PSCs,

bringing the total up to 8. Again, like Indonesia, Niko is the largest leaseholder outside the government. The announcement relating to the new PSCs gives a breakdown of the licences, interests and acreage.

The offshore fields are mainly gas orientated and the partners on two of the blocks include RWE and BG, both sensible with a view to any commercialisation of any discovery since both have major experience with LNG around the world. BG is also part of the consortium that owns the Atlantic LNG facility in Trinidad as is Repsol, which is, of course, a major partner of Niko in Indonesia.

Looking at the various licenses, the Central Range Block (CRB), 2AB and Guayaguayare blocks are on trend with the prolific E Venezuela Basin which extends to the East of Trinidad and includes the Angostura gas/condensate discovery (80M bbls and 1tcf).

A new 1,200 km2 3D survey is ongoing in Block 2AB to supplement the older 3D data it already has. The new data will verify what the company has already identified form the older generation with 2 prospects that stand out. The first is the Stalin with a risked est. recoverables of 200M bbls to 500M bbls and a second, Shadow, being a shale play.

In the CRB, Niko has already identified similar prospects to those seen on 2AB from the 2D data it shot 18 months ago. We should see the first of two wells (at least) spud in the Shallow Horizon CRB in the next month or so.

Guayaguayare is, like the CRB, split shallow and deep with several features already identified. 3D seismic is to be acquired and the first well will be likely on the Deep Beach prospect in Q1 2012.

NCMA2 & NCMA3 are immediately East of 3 producing gas fields, Poinsetta, Hibiscus and Chaconia, which are estimated to have 5Tcf recoverable which is being delivered to the Atlantic LNG terminal. Niko is teaming up with Centrica, who own NCMA4 (and is also NKO’s partner in 2AB)  to shoot 4,600 km2 of 3D over the two blocks, 2,900 of which will cover all of NCMA2 & NCMA3 starting in Q3 and likely to run to Q1 2012.

The “RNS” re the new blocks doesn’t actually cover it but NKO has a 25% interest in Block 5(c) which was acquired in December last year.[1].pdf  This block already has 3 gas discoveries on it. The block offsets the producing Dolphin field (BG and Chevron) again producing to the Atlantic terminal. The Victory 1 well was tested in December 2007 with two tests on two different formations. The first tested 40-45mmcf/d and the second did 30 mmcf/d and both tests were constrained by equipment. In mid 2008, Bounty 1 tested at a stabilised 60mmcf/d (2.5km East of Victory). Endeavour 1, some 8.4km North of Bounty 1, tested 60mmcf/d. All three wells were suspended but could ultimately be put on production. NKO’s estimates are that the 3 discoveries total up to 2.5Tcf with several undrilled structures remaining on the block.

Block 4(c) is immediately to the North of Block 5(c) with 1,000 km2 of 3D available. Already several channel fairways and stacked sands have been identified.

Some people get excited by Kurdistan, others don’t. I tend to fall into the later category given the seemingly never-ending political wrangling between the KRG and the Iraqi Oil Ministry which makes commercialising any discovery a dream at the moment. Nevertheless, NKO has a 37% interest in the Qara Dagh well being drilled by Vast Exploration. It also holds a 10% interest in Vast itself.

Recent update on the QD1 well, (which spudded on 12 May 2010) was positive with the logs showing 143 m of possible pay in the Upper Cretaceous (Tanjero and Upper Shiranish formations). The top of the Shiranish is the first of the three initial primary Cretaceous targets estimated to be at 3420m. Increased florescence and gas readings were seen in cuttings which could suggest oil or liquids.

The well had been drilled to 3558m with a 7” liner set. The plan is to now drill on to the TD of 4200m which some analysts think means it may not drill through the deeper Qamchuqa formation. This would reduce the potential In Place numbers but the Unrisked IP nos were estimated by AJM to be 2.25 bn bbls so we are talking big numbers here. There is also the Aliiji formation which was drilled through in July 2010 that had a 64m net pay zone with strong indications of hydrocarbons. This will be tested as part of the overall testing program which is expected to be completed in June.

As I say, Kurdistan is not the main reason for holding NKO in my opinion, but a discovery here would be potential material but there are the risk re government and also a possible repeat of HOIL where the initial positives (for oil) turned into a multi tcf gas play).

A second well planned for the block will not be drilled until mid 2012.

Niko has 4 blocks (100% WI) in the Indus Basin, the second largest fan system in the world. The blocks total 2.45M acres and NKO has 2,000 km2 of 3D data from 2 separate programs.

Pakistan has long been a frustration for the international oil companies with recent offshore explo activities disappointing. The previous drilling has focussed on the shallow Miocene whereas Niko is looking to opportunities it has identified in the Cretaceous to pre Miocene levels. Positive AVO responses have been noted on several Eocene channel prospects as leads on Palaeocene carbonate build-ups with at least 20 opportunities being identified to date from the different play types. There is no drilling location planned yet since the company has to complete the 3D analysis. The first of a 2 well program is planned for early Q1 next year (2012) and they are sourcing a rig and tubulars. Water depth here isn’t a problem (mostly sub 200M). Whilst a 4km well would cost roughly $40M, Niko has 100$ so I would expect to see a farm down to say 50% to mitigate costs.

Over the course of the next month, Niko should complete the processing of the 3,200km2 of 3D that it acquired last year (2010). It also has around 10,000km2 of multibeam data available. A variety of play types (stratigraphic and Cretaceous channels) have been identified and oil seeps processed during the multibeam acquisition provide evidence of an active petroleum system extending out from the big heavy oil fields on shore. The first explo well could spud in H2 2012. Given the recent experience of investors and companies in Madagascar (MOIL) and the political problems of the country, I don’t attach any real value (yet).

I didn’t really know where to put Bangladesh. It’s a cash flow situation really, not massively material to the upside story for the company with most analysts carrying around the $3/shr PV10. Onshore operations with the main Block 9 (60% WI) operated by Tullow. Current production (gross is 120M scf/d).

Well that’s about it for now. That puts a bit more “meat” on the bones (or into the thread header anyway). Apologies for any spelling, grammar and other errors but hopefully that gives everyone a better idea about the company.

Disclosure. We do hold a goodly chunk of NKO stock

The opinions expressed by the author are those made by him personally as an individual and not in any professional capacity.

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136 Posts on this Thread show/hide all

uncommon13 26th May '11 97 of 136

In reply to uncommon13, post #96

Researching a bit more, Sonde Resources's 1st quarter results released yesterday mentioned this:

In Trinidad, the Company has received correspondence indicating the Minister of Energy and Energy Affairs agreement to proceed with the sale of Block 5(c) and the Mayaro-Guayaguayare Bay Block Exploration and Production license to Niko Resources Ltd. (“Niko”). The necessary documents are being
prepared to guarantee the transfer from Sonde to Niko under the direction of the Ministry.

Block 5(c) is 75% owned by the BG group with three drills in the block encountering hydrocarbons and successfully tested although commerciality is being assessed.

Edit: Opps, this is old news announced initially in Dec last year which I forgot about and Darron has already put the information in the header of this thread...oh well, need some sleep and I'm off to bed..

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djpreston 26th May '11 98 of 136

Don't worry Uncommon, its easy to lose track of what's going on in Niko's vast empire.

I'm just glad that there's someone else chipping in on the thread.

Fund Management: European Wealth
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moniclub 8th Jun '11 99 of 136

"A rise in natural gas output from the D6 block in the Krishna-Godavari (KG) basin, India’s largest gas reservoir operated by Reliance Industries Ltd (RIL), may not be possible in the next 36 months. This is the view of both RIL and its Canadian partner Niko Resources Ltd, as well as the Directorate General of Hydrocarbons (DGH), the nodal agency for development of hydrocarbon assets in India"...

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marben100 10th Jun '11 100 of 136

Cross-post to webcast event at which Niko (amongst many other favourites :0)) will be presenting:

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mallwood 13th Jun '11 101 of 136

May be able to gallop, but can still trip over a few times! 6.8% decline in reserves due to "Technical revisions and economic factors"

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djpreston 14th Jun '11 102 of 136

Bad day to release less than great news.

Have to agree with this view from a broker:

Although the 6.8% y/y decline in 2P reserves is slightly negative, strong pricing has resulted in NKO's NPV of future net revenues remains relatively unchanged. Additionally, this 2P figure does not include contingent resources from 20 satellite discoveries at D6, 15 discoveries at NEC 25 or 3 discoveries at the 5c Block in Trinidad and Tobago. Further, reported reserves do not include the impact of recent deep drilling success at Hazira.

That's a lot of discoveries not yet in reserves.

Fund Management: European Wealth
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uncommon13 15th Jun '11 103 of 136

In reply to djpreston, post #102

Investigations into the inflated costs of some Indian fields possibly affecting D6 and Cairn India:

However, today's news is that the oil ministry has rejected D6's inflated costs investigation :)

Government officials also said the CAG had overlooked the fact that Reliance's higher expenditure was linked to doubling of its gas output to 80 million standard cubic metres a day (mmscmd).

I wish the UK government understands the below point which the Indian government highlights:

Another official said the CAG had assessed the complex issue from an accounting perspective, but the government also wanted the national auditor to factor in the oil industry's concerns that exploration was a high-risk business and private companies would invest only if they were allowed reasonable returns on their risk capital.

But if there is no discovery, the operator bears the loss alone, making it a high-risk business, for which investors seek commensurate rewards.

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marben100 15th Jun '11 104 of 136

In reply to djpreston, post #102

Ed Sampson addressed the reserves issue in today's presentation. AIUI it's mostly to do with the fiscal regime in India: higher prices tend to reduce bookable reserves, apparently.

Roll on the drilling programme (and perhaps some interesting Qara Dagh results (it;s currently being tested).

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mallwood 16th Jun '11 105 of 136

I've not had a chance to listen to the webcast yet (it wasn't up when I tried to see it last night and have to go to work this morning), but going by comments on the ADVFN Vast board they suggested that they were thinking of going deeper.

Now I wasn't aware that you could test some bits of the well and then go back down and have another go. Does anyone with industry knowledge know how this will affect testing (in particular, does it preclude getting flow rates? Not such an issue for NKO, but massive for VST).

My rose-tinteds lead me to think that when comparing cuttings to the seismic they think that one of the other prospects is just below their current TD, but going by VSTs 20% drop at one point yesterday, I guess some people are reading into it that they haven't found what they were looking for.

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marben100 23rd Jun '11 106 of 136

Prelim results for 2010 due today, according to my diary. As they're not out yet, I presume they'll be released after hours in Canada. Meantime, seems that the neighbours are getting busy (published 21st June):

MUMBAI: Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC) plans to invest $7.7 billion to develop its gas field in the KG Basin, adjoining Reliance's prolific D-6 block, and produce up to 30 million cubic meters aday in five years. It plans to drill eight additional wells in the block to maximize output from the deep-sea field in the Bay of Bengal and has sought approval for the plan from the directorate general of hydrocarbons and the petroleum ministry...

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djpreston 24th Jun '11 108 of 136

The use of a car and a trip to Canada and the US!!

Not quite a suitcase of DoLlar bills or a Berlusconi Island villa full of very young, errr, girls is it?

Fund Management: European Wealth
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uncommon13 24th Jun '11 109 of 136

In reply to Mattybuoy, post #107

A bit more detail:

The Mounties' case against Niko centres around alleged gifts for a junior energy minister in Bangladesh, AKM Mosharraf Hossain. In 2005, at a time when Mr. Hossain was responsible for assessing what compensation Niko should provide to villagers after an explosion at one of the company's drilling sites, a new Toyota Land Cruiser, purchased by Niko, was delivered to his house. At the time, Niko said that it had provided the luxury SUV to its partner in Bangladesh, the state-owned gas company known as BAPEX, and denied having any knowledge about the luxury SUV's ultimate destination.

The Globe has also learned that a family trip to New York taken by Mr. Hossain and his family is central to the RCMP's case.

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djpreston 24th Jun '11 110 of 136

One small bit of news is that NKO have completed the acquisition of Black 5(c) off Trinidad.

Now the deal is done, we should see more information start to emerge re the pans for this (and the other 6 blocks).

Fund Management: European Wealth
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TheFurryOne 24th Jun '11 111 of 136

In reply to djpreston, post #108

True. But it still cost them a pretty penny:

Oil and gas company Niko Resources Ltd. was fined almost $9.5 million Friday after admitting in court that it bribed a Bangladeshi government minister with the use of a vehicle and a trip to North America.

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mallwood 27th Jun '11 112 of 136

And now we have some Canuck lawyers attempting to launch a class action suit on "the disclosures, stock option practices and foreign business practices" of Niko. (no additional info in it, though)

Does anyone have any experience of this kind of thing and how much it's likely to cost? Seems a bit crazy for shareholders to sue the company they own themselves.

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Mattybuoy 29th Jun '11 113 of 136

This happens all the time in the US. Literally. Not so sure about Canada, I did imagine they might be a bit more sensible, being subjects of the Queen and everything ... ;-)

Anecdotally I believe that these suits rarely produce anything more than fees for the ambulance-chasing lawyers.

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marben100 25th Aug '11 115 of 136

Q1 Results (1st April - 30th June) now out (61pp):

• Natural gas production from the D6 Block averaged 170 MMcf/d compared to the Company’s F2012 forecast of 158 MMcf/d.

• Mechanical problems at Block 9 resulted in natural gas production of 55 MMcf/d during the quarter compared to a F2012 forecast of 62 MMcf/d. Gas production from Block 9 returned to 63 MMcf/d by mid-July.

• Operating cash flow in the quarter was $79 million and in line with the Company’s forecast for fiscal 2012.

• The Company adopted international financial reporting standards (IFRS). Please see note 24 to the consolidated financial statements for a detailed reconciliation of Canadian GAAP to IFRS.

• Earnings for the quarter under IFRS were $2.9 million before the $57.9 million loss related to a change in accounting estimate with respect to deferred income taxes as discussed in detail in "Segment Profit – India – Income Taxes" in the Company’s management’s discussion and analysis.

• Indonesia: Planning for drilling activities commenced and Niko expects to award a drilling contract late September 2011. In early August, Niko received a prospective resource report for its Kofiau block. The report shows a best estimate gross unrisked prospective resources of 787 million barrels of oil equivalent. To date, the Company has received prospective resource reports on four of its sixteen blocks in Indonesia. Total best estimate of gross unrisked prospective resources for the four blocks is 4.6 billion barrels of oil equivalent. See more detailed discussion below.

• Trinidad: The Company increased its exploration acreage in Trinidad with three new offshore blocks, all of which are in proximity to producing gas fields, and entered into an agreement, which closed subsequent to year-end, to acquire a 25 percent working interest in Block 5(c), located 94 kilometres off the east coast of Trinidad. In addition, drilling has now commenced on the Central Range Block.

• Kurdistan: The Qara Dagh well has been drilled to a depth of 3,908 metres, log evaluated and flowed marginal volumes of light oil. The Company intends to deepen the well to 4,150 metres. In August, the Company increased its interest in the block from 37 percent to 49 percent for a total cost of $9 million. The transaction is subject to approval by the Kurdistan Regional Government.

• India: Development drilling on the D6 Block recommenced in July 2011.

So, 4.6bn boe unrisked for just four out of 16 Indonesian blocks - tasty! Good to see development drilling in D6 moving forward - should reverse declines in the block seen over the last year. Nevertheless, the 2012 forecast is for a further (slight) decline in production. Disappointment at Qara Dagh (so far).

Cashflow - before spending $78.1 to acquire Trindidad Block 5(c) - was a satisfactory $57.6m for the quarter, net of CAPEX and explo costs.

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djpreston 30th Aug '11 116 of 136

BP Deal with Reliance completed.

Now the clock begins on whether Niko will buy the additional 30% (of their existing interest) that they are allowed to.

Fund Management: European Wealth
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- If you want to get your ex boyfriend back then you need to figure out a way to meet up with him again in the first place. You need to call him, email, or text him asking him to meet you on a friends only type basis.

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- Do not come off as desperate when you meet him. Instead simply inform him that you are doing well and are seeing other guys. Look for signs and hints that he still might have some feelings left for you. If you start to see some signs then its time to try and become more romantic with him.

Remember that if your ex boyfriend is with another girl this may take some time. There are alot of different ways to lure him back to you, but if he is seeing another girl then you need to take your time and look for the signs as you go.

Getting your ex boyfriend back is not always clear cut, there are different ways to go about it. Just remember to keep your head up and remain confident, if he has any feelings at all left for you then you can lure him back into your life. Good luck!

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View Full Version : Some Other Bourbon Video

09-10-2002, 14:26
We all know about the bourbon video; it's called "Made and Bottled in Kentucky" (http://cowdery.home.netcom.com/page8.html), and the trailer credits say it was written, produced, and directed by a certain Mr. Charles Cowdery, aka, "Our Very Own Chuck".

Is there another video about bourbon?

Recently my son told me he casually glimpsed another such video, which he thinks he saw on The History Channel. I wish he had paid more attention, as I would like to find it on video. A search of The History Channel website has been fruitless. Perhaps he actually saw it elsewhere.

He remembers one scene where bourbon bottles were being dipped, upside-down in black wax, but he can't say whether it was Maker's Mark (for the Japanese market), Knob Creek, or some other bottling.

Has anyone else any idea what this program might have been and whether it is available on videocassette?

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

09-10-2002, 17:09
Dave I'm sure your son is refering to a PBS show called 'The Thirsty Traveler'. The black wax is a dead givaway as the show was on Jim Beam and one of the sceens was of Knob Creeking bottle dipping and embossing. There is also another edition out that also shows some of the other distilleries, but I havn't seen it.

09-10-2002, 17:47
Linn, according to my search "the Thirsty Traveler" airs on Food TV or the Food Network as some call it.

Here is their publicity:

All that food got you parched? Quench your thirst with our globe-trotting journey of a lifetime. Follow host Kevin Brauch as he visits the world's greatest beer, wine and spirit-producing regions, from the sun-drenched hills of Sonoma Valley, California, to the frothy beer halls of Belgium. Discover the regions' customs and revel in his destination's stunning landscape and cuisine.
Thirsty Traveler airs Tuesdays at 10:30 p.m. and 1:30 a.m., and Saturdays at 6:00 p.m. All times ET.

09-10-2002, 17:55
I've not seen the show so I won't argue about where they shot scenes but I do know their material lists the following sources:

Buffalo Trace Distillery
(502) 696-5924

The Old Talbott Tavern
107 W. Stephen Foster Ave.
Bardstown, KY 40004
(502) 348-3494

Makers Mark Bourbon
Star Hill Farm
Loretto, KY 40037
(270) 865-2881

Elmwood Mansion

If they shot at Jim Beam in Clermont or elsewhere they are not listing it.

09-10-2002, 18:05
Yeah you're right Greg I've gotten the two mixed up. At any rate there are two shows of limited scope about bourbon floating around along with a CNN piece on L & G.

09-24-2002, 10:50
We may be talking about two different things. The show on the History Channel was part of the "Hands on History" series. Ron Hazelton is the host. I saw it. It was shot entirely at Jim Beam and the black wax was Knob Creek. I remember because my brother watched it with me and he was surprised to learn that the wax sealing really is a by-hand operation.

09-24-2002, 12:08
Chuck, you are right. I was not aware of the show on the History Channel. I've watched The Thirsty Traveler but did not see their bourbon episode. I sure learned a lot about ouzo from Greece though http://www.straightbourbon.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

11-12-2002, 21:03
In an amazing coincidence my Dad and i were watching Bobby Flay's show on the Food Network while I was showing him the pictures I got while I was in bardstown, and what should come on directly afterward but the Thirsty Traveler's show on Bourbon. It is really fun when you can talk about a show on TV like you have been there like the segments on BT and the Talbott tavern, It really brings things to life. My Dad started tlaking like he wanted to meet in Bardstown for the next Festival http://www.straightbourbon.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif BLEEEEEE!!!! The only qualm I had was at the end that they were using Maker's Mark and Van Winkle Family Reserve as good examples of whiskeys to go with cigars and they were discussing them as equalls. Even though I enjoy MM, they are not even in the same ballpark! http://www.straightbourbon.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/blush.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/blush.gif !

12-08-2005, 13:28
I finally happened to catch this episode of "Thirsty Traveller" last night. It aired on the Fine Living channel. I noticed that the DirecTV guide listed the episode as being made in 2003.

The show was actually in three segments. The first, which focused on bourbon alone, was filmed partly at the Maker's Mark distillery. Assuming that the spoken dialog matched the sub-titles, upon which I increasingly rely, there were several errors. After correctly stating that bourbon mash must contain at least 51% corn, later the narrator said that the mash recipe is "very simple", consisting solely of corn, water and yeast. No mention of rye, barley malt or even wheat -- the latter being very surprising considering where the segment was shot and the speaking part granted to Mr. Samuels.

The second segment focued on preparation of food and a formal dinner in the home of a gentleman whose name I tried unsuccessfully to remember.

Finally there was the segment on bourbon and cigars, still in the same home.

The episode was enjoyable to watch, just as long as I didn't take it too seriously.

Oh, and there was also some material shot at Buffalo Trace. That must have been in the first segment. There was one revealing scene in which Elmer T. Lee sipped and then described the taste of his namesake bourbon. Not once did he mention leather, cinnamon, coriander, nutmeg, lotus blossoms, cattails or any of the fanciful descriptors that we would-be connoisseurs are likely to use.

Anyway, this show is still in the playlist, possibly making it worth one's while to click on "Info" when the Fine Living channel appears while one is channel surfing.

{This post is dedicated to the Search function, without which I would have created a new and redundant thread.}

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

12-08-2005, 14:14
Only took you three years huh Dave? http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif

12-08-2005, 20:57

Just goes to show, I have a very long memory (or at least the remnants of one http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif ).

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

12-08-2005, 22:18
Hi Dave,
So, what did Elmer have to say?

12-08-2005, 22:21
Hi Dave,
I have watched several episodes of The Thirsty Traveler. I think it is a good show, especially when they are talking about an alcoholic beverage that I don't know much about. I particularly enjoyed the absinthe episode.

12-09-2005, 20:19

To the best of my recall, Elmer's comments were only what I've already outlined (regarding his namesake bourbon), plus small talk with the program host.

I should have taken notes. It was on quite late, and I'd already had a couple of generous drinks.

Yours truly,
Dave Morefield

12-10-2005, 11:43
It was shot entirely at Jim Beam and the black wax was Knob Creek. I remember because my brother watched it with me and he was surprised to learn that the wax sealing really is a by-hand operation.

I realise this was posted in 2002 but as of 2004 when we toured Jim Beam they have machinery that does the wax seals on KC, and I would also think Bookers because of the way it is on at an angle. They send 3 bottles at a time and they are inverted with the tops in a mold, I would think the wax is then injected in.Then again they are going to get in the wax sealing business in a big way. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif

Ken Weber
12-11-2005, 16:08
You will never hear Elmer mentioning any of those flavors. We had a conversation a while back and he pretty much said that all he tastes in bourbon is sweet, bitter, vanilla, caramel, earthy, hot. There may have been a few more descriptors, but I don't recall. When I asked about tasting leather, he looked at me with a twinkle in his eye and said, "Ken, we're drinking bourbon, not chewing on a shoe!"

12-11-2005, 18:05
Thank you, Ken. That certainly clears things up. But do you sometimes taste leather?

Ken Weber
12-11-2005, 20:08
I have a difficult time defining the things I taste in bourbon (which is why I am envious of many of the well-written reviews in SB.com)! I have tasted chocolate in Stagg, vanilla in Elmer T. Lee,and citrus flavors in several bourbons. Leather and tobacco are two flavors I have often encountered in very favorable bourbon reviews, but I have not personally encountered them yet.


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View Full Version : Attention Vodka Drinkers

03-03-2004, 19:12
Some posts in another thread told me there are some vodka drinkers here. I would like to invite vodka drinkers (okay, anybody) to react/respond to the following:

Vodka is grain neutral spirits (GNS) and water. The water is added to reduce the 190+ proof GNS to between 100 and 80 proof for bottling. That is the legal definition of vodka. Vodka, by law, has no "distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color." The only reason two different vodkas taste different is because different sources were used for the water used to dilute it after distillation. Therefore, the only difference between the contents of a $10 bottle of vodka and a $50 bottle of vodka is that different water has been used to dilute the GNS.

03-03-2004, 19:19
I just dispense with the suspense and forego drinking vodka. If I'm in the mood for white spirits, I much prefer gin. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/drink.gif

03-03-2004, 19:23
Here! Here! (or, is it, Hear! Hear!)

Oh well! http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/toast.gif

03-03-2004, 19:29
It does seem though that many vodkas taste different, one from the other, when sampled straight - I realise all vodka in the bottle is diluted from the cask strength, but still this remains true and I don't think the different waters alone explain the difference. Some vodka is floral, some sweetish (e.g., Stolichnaya has sugar added, I am quite sure), some creamy, etc. I think the different cereals used to form the mash do have varying impact on flavour.

I believe also that even at 190 proof congeneric content varies in vodka and that residual congeners can impact flavor.

Theory and practice are two different things. I remain convinced that vodka is not GNS in most cases, not at the higher ranges of quality. There are too many variables.

03-03-2004, 20:15
It does seem though that many vodkas taste different, one from the other, when sampled straight

I agree. Try drinking a straight shot of a "premium" vodka and a shot of a cheap, well vodka. I guarantee you'll taste a difference. I drank Popov straight once and it tasted like kerosene. (Not to be confused with Zima, which tastes like a mix of kerosene and 7-Up).

03-03-2004, 20:24
I imagine what distinguishes a high-end vodka is the grain quality, water source, and distillation procedures. My personal favorite, Pearl, boasts that it's distilled five times and made from winter wheat.

I can attest that mouthfeel and taste (or *LACK* of taste) varies greatly in vodkas.

Bottom line--vodkas are boring. Give me a bourbon any day!

03-03-2004, 20:32
27 CFR 5.22
(a) Class 1; neutral spirits or alcohol. "Neutral spirits" or "alcohol" are distilled spirits produced from any material at or above 190 deg. proof, and, if bottled, bottled at not less than 80 deg. proof.
(1) "Vodka" is neutral spirits so distilled, or so treated after distillation with charcoal or other materials, as to be without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color.

03-04-2004, 00:59
This is the U.S. definition of vodka, i.e., domestic vodka. If I read it right it is saying that 190 proof neutral spirit is not vodka per se but qualifies if distilled again or subjected to filtration or other rectification to remove distinctive flavour. So clearly vodka, at least in the U.S., is grain neutral spirit but requires yet further processing to be called vodka! I don't know that much about vodka production but do know that generally, U.S. and British vodkas, including Canadian types, are almost tasteless as a result. But this does not mean, in practice, that they are identical in nose, taste or mouthfeel. I do not believe water alone can explain this. I would think all water is treated in North American plants when added to pure spirit so as itself to be almost neutral.

Consumer writers on vodka say that traditional vodkas from Poland and Russia are not bland and neutral like American vodka but have flavour - it can be subtle - resulting from production differences vs. our methods. E.g., some Russian vodka traditionally was distilled only once. I have noted on vodka labels over the years reference to two, three or even four distillations. Repeated distillation(s) I would think are done not just to produce more throughput economically but to "purify" the taste more. That is, the less processed vodkas have "more" or at any rate a different taste than, say, a quadruple-distilled vodka. Traditional vodka was also subjected to less filtration than, say, American vodka. Also, people have written that rye and wheat are superior materials to start from than molasses or corn. (I noted in England two years ago that a well-known gin brand advertised on the label the base spirit was made from grain: a cheaper, own-brand close by stated the base was derived from molasses). I can't explain further technically why Russian or Polish vodkas are considered superior in flavour generally to our versions. Can it be false perception? Maybe in part but I think there is some basis to it. Has some Russian and Polish vodka itself become more neutral tasting over the years to widen its market here? Undoubtedly. But still there are detectable differences amongst the traditional foreign brands and between them as a group and our silent spirit-type vodkas.

Also, something can lack distinctive taste but still differ from another of its type. Water from springs varies widely in taste for example but does not have a distinctive taste.

If one sampled Everclear diluted to 80 proof vs. Popov vs. a Polish rye vodka vs. a good Russian vodka, I think they would be found to taste somewhat different. I once attended a tasting some years ago of this nature and the tasters agreed that differences abounded. I believe taste differences result from the type of fermentable materials used, whether there are prolonged distillations or filtrations to remove congeners, and in some cases the type of water used to make or dilute the spirit.

Also, grain neutral spirit contains measurable amounts of congeners. The amounts are very small but in my view the fact that each brand will contain differing types and levels of congeners will have an effect on flavour. It may be subtle and probably is not noticeable in mixed drinks, at least when consumed casually as is usually the case. But there seem to be "signatures" to many of the vodkas in the market when taken neat.

03-04-2004, 09:14
I think there are more differences in flavor than water alone would cause. The differences must either come from distillation process or grain used. But these differences are subtle.

I think the higher end (and heavily marketed) vodkas like Grey Goose and Belvedere are way overrated. One of my favorites costs $15, Monopolowa; a potato vodka from Austria. There are so many vodkas on market and most are not advertised.

Another consideration is probably 90% of vodkas go into cocktails/ martinis with fruit juices or other flavorings. Once you start mixing a cosmopolitan, I doubt you could tell Grey Goose from Absolute or Popvov.

03-04-2004, 09:27
Blended Vodka...not the "specialty" stuff but "regular" Vodka...

Buy the one with the "cheapest" price tag http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif...

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Bettye Jo http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

03-04-2004, 09:50
A few points on vodka:

1) If ever there was a place for analytical chemistry in the drinks business,
this is it! I'll bet that there's more in there than just ethanol + water.

2) Congeners are human-detectable at really low concentrations, so it doesn't
take much to alter the taste/smell.

3) Just because the law says it must be water + ethanol doesn't mean that it's
true in practice. When dealing with pure things, cleanliness is everything.
Perhaps a certain vodka was distlled to 190 proof, but later handling
could "inadvertantly" add flavorings. <*see footnote>.

4) I'm not joking when I say this, but: define "water". As we've seen in
the press lately, Coca-Cola's flagship bottled water ("Dasani"), marketed
as "pure", actually has added magnesium, calcium, and sodium bicarbonate,
all for taste. How much of these minerals can you add and still call it
water? How much of these minerals are required to make vodkas taste
different? I consider minerals to be valid ingredients in vodka which
might very well lead to detectable differences in taste.

<*> I heard a funny story about Budweiser trying to track down some "off"
flavors in one of it's beers. They thought they had an infection
somewhere in the brewing process, but it only turned up every now and then.
They pulled their hair out for a while... and discovered that it was coming
from the bottle caps. So they leaned on their suppliers and tried to root
out the problem, but to no avail. Eventually they discovered the real problem:
every now and then, one of the semi trailers used to haul the bottle caps
would have a residual smell in it from a previous (unrelated to beer) load
of something they were hauling. This would then seep into the plastic lining
of the bottlecaps and from there seep into the beer!

03-04-2004, 11:53
From my experience, there are definitely significant differences in the taste of vodka. Grey Goose, Turi, Ciroc, Thor's Hammer, and Ketel One are the ones I've tasted most recently, and all have significantly different flavors that I was able to identify in a blind test... I even convinced someone who had argued his whole life that vodka was just ethanol and water that there really is a difference using Grey Goose and Ketel One, and those are far more similar than say, Ciroc, Turi, and Thor's Hammer.

03-04-2004, 15:46
All excellent points, especially the one that all water is not created equal, which is exactly my point. The differences in vodkas are all attributable to the differences in the dilution water, which has nothing to do with the "quality grains" or the "careful distillation methods" or the "distiller's art." It's the water!

03-04-2004, 17:14
Federal regulations regarding spirits apply to all products sold in the United States, regardless of their origin. I can't speak for Canada. Here is the only regulation I can find permitting the flavoring of vodka without causing it to be called "flavored vodka."

27 CFR 5.23 Alteration of class and type.

(3) "Harmless coloring, flavoring, and blending materials" shall
not include (i) any material which would render the product to which it
is added an imitation, or (ii) any material, other than caramel,
infusion of oak chips, and sugar, in the case of Cognac brandy; or (iii)
any material whatsoever in the case of neutral spirits or straight
whiskey, except that vodka may be treated with sugar in an amount not to
exceed 2 grams per liter and a trace amount of citric acid. (emphasis added)

The portion of the CFR pertaining to alcohol regulation can be found here (http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassemble.cgi?title=200227)

Finally, vodka drinkers should see also cognitive dissonance (http://www.dmu.ac.uk/~jamesa/learning/dissonance.htm) for a further explanation of what they think they're tasting.

If science can't explain it, perhaps religion can. From the Book of Hebrews: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

03-04-2004, 17:43
A quick google search for:
gc vodka

turned up a .pdf of a paper that looked at mineral content of vodkas
with an eye towards spotting fakes.

From the paper:

"For premium vodka brands,
demineralised water is filtered through activated carbon
to absorb unwanted organic and inorganic materials. Then
it is passed through deionisation columns, which remove
other impurities present. The rectified spirit and demineralised
water are blended in the correct proportions. The
blended spirit is charcoaled for up to 8 h. The charcoal
adsorbs impurities that cannot be removed by distillation

They make a big deal about getting all the salts out, and
the study shows that Russian vodkas tend to have very little
salt, whereas German vodkas have much more salt (as do the

They also mention that additives are used to change pH,
"which enhance the softness of taste".

The GC results show that there is some acetaldehyde and
some iso-amyl alcohol in the Smirnoff and the "authentic
German vodka", but no other higher alcohols.

Their list of vodkas tested didn't look all that impressive...
the only names I recognized were Smirnoff and Absolut.

I think I'm starting to agree with Chuck. "Premium vodka" is
all about the water.

Tim Dellinger

03-04-2004, 18:59
I agree also Chuck, not all water IS equal.

Case in point:

A few years back our good friends at Jack Daniels had a novel piece of holiday glassware in which there were two spheres, one above the other kind of resembling a headless Frostie the Snowman. The idea was to fill the bottom portion with water or other chaser and float the JD on top of it in the second cylinder. A good friend found that the JD would not float on tap water, bottled spring water, or even distilled water from a bottle but would blend right in. However, he tried some well water from his grandfather's farm's well and VOILA seperation was achieved. I've tasted (or rather didn't taste) that water supply before and it has to be the most mineral free tasteless water I ever had. I'd like to think it was akin to the limestone filtered water used by our good friends at the distilleries.

03-04-2004, 19:07
Yet even Budweiser doesn't always taste (exactly) the same, why then should the ethanol component of vodkas made in many different parts of the world, from different materials, distilled from once to four times depending on the method employed, filtered or not in various ways? It can't just be the water that explains the fact they do taste different. Don't distilleries all use a fairly tasteless demineralised water (or whatever it's called) to dilute? If (as is the case) GNS contain measurable amounts of congeners, surely the type and amount must vary in all these products; why would the taste result not vary accordingly?

Isn't the discussion more, what constitutes a subtle difference?

03-04-2004, 19:24
I am not a big vodka drinker, but, it is my understanding that vodka is made from various grains and/or potatoes. These ingredients have to have an influence on the taste... just like wheat and rye with bourbon! http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/drinking.gif

03-04-2004, 19:35
I have a hard time believing it's all from the water. Vodka tasting notes (http://www.tastings.com/search_spirits.lasso?se=k&sb=All&ca=Vodka&sf=Score ForSort&sk=0) often speak of "anise", "citrus", and other flavors that ethanol + water alone really shouldn't have. Unless of course, you think it's all a bunch of hooey. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif

03-04-2004, 20:07
I am not a big vodka drinker, but, it is my understanding that vodka is made from various grains and/or potatoes. These ingredients have to have an influence on the taste... just like wheat and rye with bourbon!

Not, and this is the point, at 190+ proof. GNS is alcohol and nothing else. The chemists here can explain it better than I can, but alcohol is alcohol, all chemically identical. You taste grain characteristics, etc., in whiskey because it is distilled at less than 160 proof and in some cases as low as 110 proof. The very purpose of the high distillation proof of vodka and the processes like charcoal filtering is to remove the taste-producing congeners so it complies with the federal requirement of tastelessness.

03-05-2004, 00:35
For some time I've been following a company called Shakers which makes vodka in the U.S. This company came out of the team that produced Pete's Wicked Ale which until sale of the brand was a successful, pioneering micro-beer. Shakers is making a splash around the country. Pat Couteaux is the company's distiller and has advanced degrees in distillation science. Pat Couteaux has been interviewed numerous times about his company's product. See e.g. www.cocktailtimes.com (http://www.cocktailtimes.com), also www.findarticles.com. (http://www.findarticles.com.) He states that the grain from which vodka is derived and the mix of grains affects flavour and mouth feel. He classifies flavour as neutral if corn is used, "soft" if wheat is used and spicy if rye is used (he speaks of a "hint" of spice from the rye). He describes in detail the complex distillation process - 6 distillations - used by Shakers to get what it wants in the flavour profile. I am not an expert on vodka, much less chemistry, far from it, but he is focusing on grain source as a differentiator here. On the company's website, www.shakersvodka.com (http://www.shakersvodka.com), it is claimed the taste "embodies" the wheat the vodka is made from. It is suggested the further removal of congeners, in two final extractive distillations, allows the wheat character to come through.

There would appear to be different views of what constitutes a lack of taste. I am not saying I could detect these differences on a blind taste test but then again I rarely drink vodka. I recall having some Stoli recently at a Russian-style restaurant and it struck me as "empty", lacking body and flavour. But then too my regular tipples are some of the most flavourous whiskies made, so it is going from one extreme to another..

Also, I would note each maker of GNS (as legally defined for proof level of course) establishes its own specification for its brand. There is no national standard which specifies what residual congeners can or cannot be in the ethanol or in what percentage. No doubt distillation to 190 or 192 proof in pratice will remove most congeners that affect flavour - most but not all because otherwise why would some distillers continue to rectify pure alcohol? Shakers' site makes clear that its first four distillations removes the water from the spirit. The last two are intended to remove congeners that (presumably) don't deliver the taste profile the company is looking for. If in fact the "wheat" still influences the final product there must be something in the spirit derived from the wheat that delivers this result - I assume this consists of very small amounts of "good" congeners that help impart the taste desired. I was reading of a vodka made in France and sold in the U.S. - can't recall the name at present - that is distilled from wine. It is sold here as a "vodka" (thus meeting the legal test Chuck has mentioned). The taste notes given indicate a scent of white grapes. Byrn writing in the 1870's noted that no matter how much a grape brandy from lees (kernels and skins of grapes left over from winemaking rehydrated for fermentation) is distilled, it still shows some character from the source material (the typical grappa flavour is what he had in mind). I can only assume that something must remain in the ethanol no matter how prolonged the distillations and filtrations to explain such results.

03-05-2004, 15:41
Gary, the vodka made from grapes you mentioned is most likely Ciroc ( http://www.cirocvodka.com/ ). Its made from grapes, and distilled 5 times in pot stills. The character of the grapes is evident. I say with confidence that after my first taste of this, I could have picked it out in a blind test. I'm pretty sure I could pick it out, even if I'd never had it before. Its not an overpowering taste, but it is most definitely there. If you've ever had anything distilled from grapes before, you'd recognize this taste. Very good vodka by the way, highly recommended.

03-06-2004, 10:06
Calling a neutral spirit made from grapes "vodka" is as absurd as calling a drink that contains no gin, vodka nor vermouth a martini, just because it's served in a martini glass. Well, counter-intuitive if not absurd. In fact, the rules allow, maybe even require, any neutral spirit made from any material to be called "vodka." That's why the source has to be identified. Normally a spirit made from grapes would be called brandy, but at neutral proof it cannot legally be called brandy and has to be called vodka. As most of you probably have figured out by now, I interpret the current vodka craze as proof that the end times are nigh.

03-06-2004, 10:12
Chuck, I think the reason that was introduced was to show that the grains (or in this case, grapes) of origin do indeed contribute some character to the beverage. You would intuitively think that after run through multiple high-performance distillations the ethanol shouldn't care where it came from, but actually it does. Water differences alone don't answer for the residual character.

03-07-2004, 17:14
There are only four possibilities.

1) GNS is, in fact, not truly oderless, tasteless, etc. as the law requires, although presumably those are terms of art that have some legal significance, while being actually untrue, and human taste receptors can, in fact, detect residual source flavors in the 3 to 4 percent component of the distillate that is not pure ethanol. (I'm skeptical of this explanation.)

2) All ethanol is not, in fact, the same so far as taste and scent are concerned and you can taste the source material in something that is virtually pure ethanol. (I'm extremely skeptical of this one.)

3) It's the water. (My explanation for part of the phenomenon.)

4) It's cognitive dissonance (http://www.dmu.ac.uk/~jamesa/learning/dissonance.htm). (My explanation for the rest.)

03-07-2004, 22:56
Human taste buds can detect some substances in the parts per billion to parts per trillion range... TCA, the substance that causes a wine to be "corked" can be detected by some people in concentrations as low as 2 parts per trillion, although most people can't detect much less than 5 ppt. One gram of the stuff could taint a year's worth of Australia's entire wine production. An amount equal to a couple dozen grains of salt could taint an olympic sized swimming pool. Now, hopefully there is no TCA in vodka, but it is by no means the only substance that is detectable in very low concentrations. I have no problem at all believing that enough aromatics make it through the distillation process to influence the taste of the final product. I'd recommend finding a liquor store with a good selection of minis, and conducting a serious tasting of vodkas... but beware of cognitave dissonance, it works both ways http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

03-08-2004, 01:14
Your points are all well taken. I had reached a similar conclusion. The minis are a good suggestion.

03-08-2004, 06:32
Chuck--for your tasting, make sure you include Grey Goose. If you're looking for flavors & character which wouldn't be water-related, it has a non-subtle anise taste & finish.

03-08-2004, 08:16
There are only four possibilities.

1) GNS is, in fact, not truly oderless, tasteless, etc. as the law requires, although presumably those are terms of art that have some legal significance, while being actually untrue, and human taste receptors can, in fact, detect residual source flavors in the 3 to 4 percent component of the distillate that is not pure ethanol. (I'm skeptical of this explanation.)

I'd be a subscriber to explanation #1 here. Again, I'd go back to the grape-origin vodka as a perfect example. If the distillate were absolutely devoid of anything residual, it shouldn't matter where it came from.

2) All ethanol is not, in fact, the same so far as taste and scent are concerned and you can taste the source material in something that is virtually pure ethanol. (I'm extremely skeptical of this one.)

I hope you didn't misunderstand my comments as suggesting this...I think this one's absurd.

3) It's the water. (My explanation for part of the phenomenon.)

If you soften the language to "part of..." then absolutely! Just not "all of..." http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

4) It's cognitive dissonance (http://www.dmu.ac.uk/~jamesa/learning/dissonance.htm). (My explanation for the rest.)

I think this comes into play in just about any written discussion of spirits! http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

03-08-2004, 09:32
I checked my bookmarks and found the wine-derived vodka I mentioned, it is Ciroc Snap Frost Vodka. See www.cirocvodka.com. (http://www.cirocvodka.com.) It is distilled from wine made from grapes frosted over in a snap frost. The frosting concentrates the sugar in the grapes. This is sold in the U.S. now. Paul Pacult reported in 2003 that it was "sweet, ripe, grapey" and had "fruity ripeness". Of course many vodkas can taste fruity (e.g. of pineapple) but Pacult's observations seem to detect, in part at least, the product's grape origins. The company indicates a 5-step distillation process is followed. Although I can't find details, I would think the last two distillations are extractive - designed that is to lower the level of congeners that can survive even intense fractional distillation (e.g. methanol).

Just to contribute further usefully to this discussion, I want to add that I found a reference stating that the European Union allows a maximum 50 ppm. of methanol in neutral spirits. This is considerably higher than in the other countries that have adopted a national standard. The U.S. and Canada are not (from what I can glean) among these. Producers here of GNS set their own spec (i.e., beyond stated legal requirements related to 190 proof, etc.) and will aim in their best grade for much lower than 50 ppm. Apparently the EU standard is related to the fact that much spirit there is made from grapes or starchy tubers such as potatos (possibly also sugar beet) and these tend when distilled to create more methanol than other fermentables. I wonder if this explains why some Polish vodkas in particular seem more flavorful than most North American vodkas.

As I have written here before: on the rare occasions I buy vodka I buy the one which advertises the fewest distillations.

03-08-2004, 09:58

Therefore, the only difference between the contents of a $10 bottle of vodka and a $50 bottle of vodka is that different water has been used to dilute the GNS.

This has been a most interesting thread. All the discussion of tastes makes me chuckle.
I know three vodka drinkers. Two guys and a woman. The woman drinks mixed drinks, and prefers vodka because it has no taste...
The men are both mass quantity drinkers. They drink it straight or with a splash of soda, and they prefer vodka for the same reason...no taste.
I don't know whether this makes me a snob, or a backwoods hillbilly...but I don't know anyone that drinks vodka for the taste... http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif

03-08-2004, 12:08
"Of course many vodkas can taste fruity (e.g. of pineapple)"

Last year, while on vaction in Tahiti. I purchased a bottle of locally produced vodka made made from pineapple.

03-08-2004, 13:43
I had in mind non-flavoured grain vodkas but you have reminded us neutral spirits can be made from a broad range of fermentables including not just fruits but whey and even, if I am not mistaken, wood cellulose. The fruity scents of non-flavoured vodka can derive from esters and other compounds.

03-08-2004, 16:47
Chuck, if you try a taste test (I have) be sure to get a bottle of Rain Vodka.

I feel pretty certain that if you put a specific Russian vodka, a specific Polish vodka, and Rain Vodka (from Buffalo Trace) many will claim a difference in taste. Frankly, I can taste corn in Rain -- and that is the grain from which it is distilled. Rain goes from grain to finished product in Frankfort, KY. I subscribe to the theory that some of the original substance comes through.

Once you make a martini or vodka tonic -- forget it. I don't see how you can claim much of a difference.

I also point out that many US vodkas come from exactly the same source and cannot be any different from each other except for the dilution and the bottle.

05-30-2004, 10:21
I remembered this discussion about vodka while at dinner the other night when I saw this advertisement card on the table... I snapped a quick pic of it if anyone is interestind in this 'unique' (?) new product from Absolut.

05-30-2004, 10:48
Interesting because I was just reading about Absolut Blue Vodka (the regular label), and the ad copy said the vodka is distilled in a column apparatus 4 times to near neutrality and then some "low proof" spirit is added to it to add flavour. The source I read did not state the low proof spirit is made in batches but I suspect the process is the same in both cases (probably it is the same drink). This practice reminds me of the Canadian distillation practice of adding some straight whiskey to a high proof bland-tasting base spirit to lend character.

It sounds, perhaps, like a spin is being put on a traditional Absolut practice. This explains in any case why vodkas really do taste different, some are combinations of high and lower proof distillates, many are flavoured with sugar, apple spirits or other additives, and of course the particular type of water used may add its own stamp of difference.

05-30-2004, 14:33
Mark Brown once explained the Rain vodka production process, which I don't precisely remember because I didn't care, but I remember it went through four distillations in four different stills and at least one was a pot or batch still. (Rain is made by Buffalo Trace.)

The point remains, though, that it is still essentially a quest for neutrality, which is great for Switzerland but not something I get excited about drinking.

05-30-2004, 16:16
We've had the Absolut Level vodka in the store a couple of weeks now and, so far as I know, have not sold a single bottle yet. Absolut and its various flavored vodkas, however, remain good sellers. But the Level is in a level by itself -- $8-$10 more than the regular Absolut. So, the good news is that Absolut does not seem to be cannibalizing its own market; the bad news is it doesn't seem to be cannibalizing anyone else's yet, either.

05-30-2004, 16:29
I wonder, apart from packaging, what distinguishes the higher-priced Absolut from the regular Blue version. Maybe more pot still distillate is added to the newbie than to the Blue. Since the advertising makes mention of the pot still (batch) element, this is plausible. A number of vodkas over the years have advertised pot still production, I believe both Grey Goose and Ketel fall into this category. Of course, a pot still can be subjected to numerous distillations so as to lighten and render the spirit rather mild-tasting; clearly this is the case with Grey Goose which remains still a distinctive and interesting vodka.

05-30-2004, 16:33
I don't know whether this makes me a snob, or a backwoods hillbilly...but I don't know anyone that drinks vodka for the taste... http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif

I think it makes you someone on a quest for good TASTE. Something Vodka drinkers are trying to avoid. I want my bourbon pure but far from tasteless. All Vodka tastes much the same to me. The hangover may change relative to price. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

05-30-2004, 16:39
I agree and yet somehow vodka, especially well-iced, goes well on certain occasions. It suits the time when one wants a quick drink (hard to chug bourbon). Or before certain foods, or occasionally in summer. Recently I tried Ciroc (the one distilled from grape wine) and it certainly had a light fruity overlay, it went well before the beer at the barbeque. I have it only rarely, but once in a while it hits the spot. I like it neat, very cold, in shot glasses brimful. One is enough. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

05-30-2004, 17:33
Do not get me wrong I love a good bloody mary and even a fuzzy navel or white russian every now and then. For me Vodka is for mixing. It is good for that and the cheapest is as good as the best for mixing.

05-30-2004, 18:56
For me Vodka is for mixing. It is good for that and the cheapest is as good as the best for mixing.

I wouldn't quite go that far.

I just bought a bottle of Smirnoff 90 proof vodka last month for my wife's White Russians, and it had the scent of rubbing alcohol. She did not like it, even buried under the Kahlua and milk. We've since replaced it with something a bit more pleasant on the nose.

05-31-2004, 17:00
I started this thread with a prejudice that has since been modified if not entirely abated. I trust the contributors here and they said, "try some," so I did. When I buy vodka at all it typically is the cheapest American brand. Buying for a party not long ago, I picked up a bottle of Svedka, which is an Absolut knockoff. I also had some Skol in the house (a cheap American vodka) so I compared the two. There is a noticable difference. The Skol has a distinct alcohol taste. The Svedka is more nearly neutral, virtually like drinking water.

05-31-2004, 19:33
We steer a lot of store customers to Svedka as a 'value' vodka, and most are pleased. Polar Ice, also, which is ridiculously cheap at the 1.75L size, and generally positively received.
And, I'm a fan of Buffalo Trace's Rain, though I seldom drink vodka, so don't have some at hand at present.

06-01-2004, 04:11
This thread has prompted me to read up on vodka more than ever before. The Polish brands seem the most likely to offer flavor even in "unflavored" versions. This is because a number of them are not highly rectified and are made so as to show flavour (or the influence) of the cereals they are made from. A lot of interesting information is available www.polishvodka.com. (http://www.polishvodka.com.) This site has collected a number of technical articles by experts, most seemingly translated from Polish. They offer notes and discussion of brands and trends in consumption. One writer proposes a three-part classification for vodka: the Western-style neutral type; the flavoured type (using fruits, sugar, pepper, spices, what have you); and the unflavored type which is not quite neutral in taste due to not being as highly rectified as the first group. The site mentions Wyoborowa, a Polish vodka made entirely from rye, as a classic vodka offering a naturally creamy and spicy rye taste. (The renowned Starka brand is another example and others are mentioned or discussed in other sources). Wyoborowa is all-rye spirit distilled twice in pot stills. While no doubt subjected to some kind of rectification to meet the legal test for vodka, this brand, according to many commentators, offers fine flavor at a reasonable price. In 1997 it finished first in a blind tasting of vodkas held by a London newspaper, for example. The company which makes it is owned now by Pernod Ricard which apparently has not interfered with the original formulation. From taste descriptions, I believe this kind of Polish vodka may work well in some of the cocktails I make combining different bourbons, spirits and flavorings. I have noted the discussion about brown sugar in bourbon. I have never tried that but have added a very small amount of maple syrup to a blend of bourbons and the result was very good. Too much of the flavoring can "kill" the whiskey taste, however. I have found as little as 1%-2% is sufficient (essentially a dash only to a glass). This seemingly low percentage of additive is in line with recommendations in old blending manuals.

06-01-2004, 04:47
On the website I just mentioned, a home recipe is given from 1937 which is said to be "very close" to Starka vodka. Starka is a famous old-style vodka, made from lower proof rye spirit and long-aged in wood, so a form of rye whiskey, in effect. Starka was traditionally and still is aged in barrels that had held (again according to this website) "southern wines", i.e., sweet sherry, port or Malaga wine. Mark had just mentioned Imperial stout, and an Australian contributor drew our attention to a Jim Beam Bourbon sold "down under" flavored with port wine. Well, this old home recipe to emulate Starka vodka utilises two additions very close to port and strong stout, namely sweet Malaga wine and Baltic porter beer. Interested readers will want to consult the site for full details but essentially the recipe involves adding to good spirit some Malaga, a glass of porter (alternate local name for an Imperial-type stout), and a handful of hazelnut shells! I would think the shells and porter beer would emulate the effects of cask aging (e.g., give a nutty taste and increased body). The Malaga wine is similar to some of the blending agents traditionally used to flavor or marry new or blended spirits. I don't know if I will ever try to make this mixture but it makes for interesting reading.

06-01-2004, 16:31
For further reading, the latest issue of American Distller (No. 16, April
2004) is all about artisan vodkas. I especially liked the article about
Silver Creek Distillers in Idaho.

You can get it in PDF form from www.distilling.com (http://www.distilling.com), although they don't
really have a lot of bandwidth and so the website is sometimes slow.

Tim Dellinger

06-04-2004, 13:24
Gary, Are you sure you didn't mean this URL:

The site has evolved over the years, but seems to improve (unlike many web sites and cobweb sites). The history section is great reading. And every time I think of vodka, which I haven't touched in about 20 years, I want to try a sip of that astonishing 50 year old Starka: the pictures show a beautiful red color, with no coloring added, and, as you say, it must really be a relative of rye whiskey. The folks who make Starka say they have 53 year old Starka in progress (!), who knows when it will be ready? Cheers, Ed

06-04-2004, 14:12
Ed, many thanks for correcting me, indeed this is the URL I meant to draw attention to. I note too, on checking the 1937 Starka recipe "home-style", that it involves dried tea leaves in addition to the rye vodka, Malaga wine, Porter and hazelnut shells I had indicated. Sounds like a "strange brew", maybe someone will essay that for the Gazebo tastings in September! I too would like to try the real Starka, at any age, but I have never been able to find it. I believe it may taste like old-style American rye whiskey made from an all rye + barley malt mash (no corn) and showing a fruity character from addition of a fruit-based blending agent or the natural estery quality that may have derived from the top-acting yeasts used (I presume) in the old days to ferment the mash.

06-04-2004, 14:41
For those intrigued by the Polish Starka (there is also a Russian Starka that is not at all the same as the Polish one): http://www.polishvodka.com.pl/fr_starka-story.htm

Fifty years in one barrel! That must really be something. I wonder how it can avoid woodiness, though. Presumably the oak barrels are not charred. Onyone know if charred barrels are used for anything other that bourbon, rye and scotch? OK, maybe Irish and Canadian, and scotch imitators, but other than these usual suspects? Cheers, Ed

06-04-2004, 14:47
Ed, to my knowledge, new charred barrels are used by Cognac makers but only for the first year or two of aging: after that they transfer the spirit to reused casks. As for Polish Starka, surely it would have been aged (or principally) in ex-wine barrels and mainly those that held sherry or Malaga or similar. The wine addition seems a key part of the Starka character, and that would be obtained by entering the new rye spirit into barrels that used to hold Malaga or another sweet wine. See also the Starka web site for more information.

06-04-2004, 14:54
Gary, thanks for setting me straight! Seems obvious now that you repeat it! Duh! http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/banghead.gif http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif Unfortunately, we have almost no Polish grad students or post-docs here right now, which would open up a muling opportunity, but I will be keeping an eye open for a chance to get a younger (say 10 year old) Starka. Even a mini would be great. It is amazing what variety is out there. Cheers, Ed

06-04-2004, 14:57
Well, thanks but really there is so much to learn in these areas, I constantly acquire new knowledge from others on this forum, from the Internet and other reading, from tasting, from thinking.. The web site I was referring to in my last message is www.polmos.szczecin.pl. (http://www.polmos.szczecin.pl.). In fact, my understanding that Starka is aged in ex-sherry and Malaga casks comes from a number of sources including the two sites we have discussed. Since such casks are reused, they would not necessarily impart heavy wood (tannic) character to the drink notwithstanding the very long aging periods employed for some Starka.

06-04-2004, 17:30
new charred barrels are used by Cognac makers but only for the first year or two of aging: after that they transfer the spirit to reused casks.

How does that work, exactly? It would seem that after the "first year or two of aging" the cask it currently is in is "used." If they take it out of one now-used cask to put it into another used cask, what do they do with the first used cask? Put some other two-year-old Cognac into it?

Oh wait, I forgot. Cognac is in France. Now it makes perfect sense.

06-04-2004, 17:42
I think the idea is to get maximum wood extract that only a new cask can give, but they don't want too much. If they left it in the new cask after the first year or two, it would acquire a deep wood character, like Bourbon. They don't want that, so they change casks, they put it into one used many times or at least more than once. What do they do with the casks only used once? I am not sure, maybe they are sold to winemakers, or sherry houses. Also, they may transfer old cognac into these on the theory that additional wood extract won't hurt older spirit as much as it might tender young spirit. I understand casks in brandy making are reused time and again until they fall apart. It seems some of the new casks are charred pretty fair (we had this discussion earlier) but perhaps not to the extent of new Bourbon barrels..

06-04-2004, 18:14
It's possible the used casks are also decharred, but now we're just guessing.

06-04-2004, 18:56
Good point. One thing I would say with fair certainty is reused casks have a certain "taste" of, for lack of a better term, "depleted wood". It is maybe a very faint charred taste, or an oakiness which is not quite plain wood but rather (understandably!) "used wood". I detect it in much Canadian whisky, recently in Michter's Unblended American Whiskey, and some Spanish brandy. Can't say for Cognac because I drink too little of it. New charred oak really does impart the best of the barrel to whiskey; after that it's downhill all the way. http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif In that sense, I can see the logic of not drinking bourbon too old, the whole point is to allow the barrel to succour the whiskey and no doubt the red layer is key here. Once that goes, the oak container doesn't do the same thing for the spirit. Of course with brandy, scotch, Canadian whisky and American whiskeys other than bourbon that's okay: the makers don't want that rich wood sugar smokey taste to get in the spirit, or not too much of it. Different strokes, or maybe just a convenient intra- and international industry arrangement, but it all works very well..

06-14-2004, 20:11
Picking out Chuck's post here to juxtapose some notes after tasting Grey Goose and Ketel One recently side-by-side. Reason being his remarks sum up my reaction: even premium vodkas such as these reflect to a large degree a "quest for neutrality"; and yet there are evident differences between these vodkas once that is taken as the baseline. Ketel One has mild aroma but a rather heavy, soft body: "creamy", "sweet", yet not sugary. Very soft mouth feel, "pillowy", a vodka counterpart to EWSB '94. The label advertises pot distillation and no doubt this adds a lot to the flavor and texture of this drink. I drank it neat at room temperature as I did the Grey Goose. Said gander was quite different: much thinner, harsher, with all the flavour packed into the finish, an interesting bitter-like (not quite quinine, but close) aftertaste which gave it its top-note. I could see why people like GG because it would "poke through" soda or other mixes. The Ketel would too, but in a different way. To me, the Ketel was clearly superior, a well-made neutral-type spirit but not really bland at all. Vodka or at least good vodka is one of those mysterious drinks: drunk neat, especially at room temerature, it seems to acquire a flavor all its own. A bibulous paradox, perhaps..

06-16-2004, 07:30
I always wondered about that. It seems every vodka distiller is competing to see how many times they can distill the spirits and how neutral an ethanol they can produce.

I tried Stolichnaya and found it to taste like... straight ethanol in distilled water! A friend says Grey Goose is much better (she takes one sniff of a vodka's vapors and professes to know the quality... I don't believe it though).

My question is, how can any vodka NOT taste and smell like... straight ethanol in distilled water??

Time to purchase an assortment of those "airline portion" bottles.

There must be various volatile organic compounds which make it all the way through the distillation process with the ethanol. They'd have to have boiling points very close to that of ethanol, wouldn't they? ...limiting them to a fairly narrow selection.

The only source of flavor I can think of, besides any that might arise from the water used to dilute the GNS, would come from the container in which the spirits are stored. Vodka, having no special flavor of its own in a pure form, will easily "wear on its sleeve" any foreign flavors it's picked up from a container... because there's nothing to mask their taste. Consider what happens if you leave "pure" water in a plastic jug for a few days- you cannot help but taste the "plastic". Ethanol is a better solvent for many of these compounds than is water. Still, I don't know how you can appreciably take away from vodka's "reagent-grade ethanol in distilled water" taste and smell.

06-16-2004, 08:14
Read through the rest of the posts in this thread. I wouldn't exactly say they made me a believer, but they gave me a few things to think about. The human sense of taste (okay, really the sense of smell) is incredibly powerful, but so is the imagination.

06-16-2004, 12:47
Good points and questions. The fact is, no matter the thoroughness of distillation method, as you say volatiles must enter the distillate at vaporisation points close to that of ethanol. They in part - and it is known very, very small concentrations are`detectable by some humans - must account for the different flavours and mouthfeels of different vodkas. The mouthfeel in particular of Ketel One vs. Grey Goose was striking. Both were the same proof, too (80 proof). The water is another factor, probably. Glass would not react with ethanol though, so the plastic issue would only affect mini bottles sold in that form (not all are) and jug-type containers made from polystyrene or similar materials. Probably the type of charcoal or other filters used have an impact too no matter how deactivated they are.

Can one tell by nose alone? Possibly an experienced palate could do so.

09-12-2004, 05:07
Here is favorite quote of mine on vodka from, "The World Atlas of Food - A Gourmet's Guide To The Great Regional Dishes of The World" (Mitchell Beazley, 1974):

"The Russians drink much too much vodka - or so their government thinks. Since the 1950's there has been an official campaign to promote wine-drinking at the expense of vodka. In practice the two co-exist very happily. Wine consumption goes up - vodka stays put.

Good vodka is the nearest thing to plain alcohol that the distiller can produce. He may start with grain, or potatoes, or even wood shavings, but his object is to remove, by distilling and filtering, every vestige of anything except alcohol and water. The result is a drink which is more like an injection. It seems absurd to claim that in some way this spirit is delicious. But so it is - ice-cold, snorted back a glassful at a time with richly oily tidbits. This is the classic beginning to a Russian meal. Nothing can replace it".