text:
REI Community
Willow River State Park

Routes Sorted
L to R R to L Alpha
5.10 left of Jar of Flies  S
Able S
Bolt Ladder to Upper Deck S
Brass Monkey S
Business Time S
Cain S
Couch Time S
Cypher 2 S
Daily Grind S
Doppler Effect S
Double Trouble S
Dry Lightning S
Fox Confessor S
Genesis Effect S
Getting Slightly Higher S
Guess and Check S
High Road to China S
Hurtful Pleasures S
Jar of Flies S
Leftovers S
Living Slightly Larger S
Mermaid S
Middle Cyclone S
Midsummer Daydreams S
Midsummer Selection S
Mono Mercy S
Mono Route S
Natural Daydreams S
Natural Selection S
New Beginnings S
No Crack for Old Men S
Play Time Is Over S
Pride and Prejudice S
Radioactive Man S
Rejection and Mercy S
Requiem S
Speedy Delivery S
Sudden Daydreams S
Sudden Shock S
Sunday Sermon S
Surf Selection S
Tsunami S
Unknown S
Water Music S
White Noise S
Unsorted Routes:
Rest Day:
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From MP's sister site:

Willow River State Park Rock Climbing

Photos:  Recent | Best | Popular
Location: 45.0196, -92.6742 View Map  Incorrect?
Page Views: 42,901
Administrators: Doug Hemken, James Schroeder, Chris treggE, Kristine Hoffman (sitewide)
Submitted By: randy baum on Feb 8, 2006
You & This Area
Best climbs for YOU in this area
Your opinion of this PAGE:    [2 people like this page.]
Another lap on the amazing 'Natural Selection'. Mi...

Open with restrictions: MORE INFO >>>

Steep sport climbing in the large amphitheater near Willow Falls. Some of the steepest stone in the Midwest. Most climbs tend to be endurance fests on large holds. Climbs range from 5.11 to 5.13 and harder. This area is best for the 5.12 and up climber, although there are a few 5.11's. Approximately 25 routes total. Do NOT rappel from the overlook above the climbs. Across the river from the huge roof area is another cliff face that has bolts, rangers are not pleased that these bolts exist so don't climb there. Access is somewhat tenuous, so don't give the rangers any reason to close Willow to climbing.

There is also a big river that is right next to the climbing so you can pack your day of climbing and also a little whitewater. All and all it will be fun.

If you plan to TR after leading something, use your own draws for this. The anchors are showing signs of the increased traffic. If you see biners at the top of a climb that are worn or do not open and close properly, please replace them!

Getting There

Its in Hudson, WI.

Take exit 4 off of I94 and follow the signs to the park. Go past the main entrance to the small parking lot about 400 yards further. Follow the trail down the long gradual hill and to the bridge where you will see the amphitheater.

Access Restrictions

September 15 - May 15 (fall/winter/spring)
Climbing is open all day for every day of the week except for Friday and Saturday. On Friday, climbing is only open 6am-Noon. On Saturday, climbing is prohibited.

May 15 - September 15 (late spring/summer)
Climbing is open all day for every day of the week except Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. On Friday and Sunday, climbing is only allowed 6am-Noon. On Saturday, climbing is prohibited all day.

See this photo for the official park rules.

Climbing Season

Weather station 4.9 miles from here

45 Total Climbing Routes

['4 Stars',9],['3 Stars',26],['2 Stars',7],['1 Star',3],['Bomb',0]

Classic Climbing Routes in Willow River State Park

Mountain Project's determination of the classic, most popular, highest rated climbing routes for Willow River State Park:
Bolt Ladder to Upper Deck   V-easy 3     Sport, Boulder, Chipped, 1 pitch, 10'
Guess and Check   5.10c 6b 20 VII 20 E2 5b     Sport, 40'
White Noise   5.10d 6b+ 21 VII+ 21 E3 5b     Sport
Daily Grind   5.11a 6c 22 VII+ 22 E3 5c     Sport
Sudden Shock   5.11d 7a 24 VIII 25 E5 6a     Sport
Sudden Daydreams   5.12a 7a+ 25 VIII+ 25 E5 6a     Sport, 1 pitch, 60'
Natural Selection   5.12b/c 7b+ 27 IX- 27 E6 6b     Sport
Couch Time   5.12c 7b+ 27 IX- 27 E6 6b     Sport, 1 pitch, 65'
Midsummer Daydreams   5.12c 7b+ 27 IX- 27 E6 6b     Sport
Fox Confessor   5.12c 7b+ 27 IX- 27 E6 6b     Sport, 55'
Brass Monkey   5.12d 7c 28 IX 28 E6 6b     Sport
Genesis Effect   5.12d 7c 28 IX 28 E6 6b     Sport
Tsunami   5.12d 7c 28 IX 28 E6 6b     Sport, 1 pitch
Middle Cyclone   5.12d 7c 28 IX 28 E6 6b     Sport
Hurtful Pleasures   5.13a 7c+ 29 IX+ 29 E6 6c     Sport
High Road to China   5.13- 7c+ 29 IX+ 29 E7 6c     Sport
Mono Mercy   5.13b 8a 29 IX+ 30 E7 6c     Sport, 80'
Business Time   5.13b 8a 29 IX+ 30 E7 6c     Sport
Dry Lightning   5.13b/c 8a+ 29 X- 30 E7 6c     Sport
Requiem   5.13+ 8b 30 X- 31 E7 7a     Sport, 55'
Browse More Rock Climbing Classics in Willow River State Park

Featured Route For Willow River State Park
Rock Climbing Photo: topo.

Mono Mercy 5.13b 8a 29 IX+ 30 E7 6c  Wisconsin : Willow River State Park
By the mid 2000s, darkness had besieged the chossy steeps of the river Willow. Like Gandalf the Grey in the Two Towers, Chris Hirsch, another gangly wizard, shone light into the abyss. Equipped only with a grigri and some Sobe iced tea, young Hirsch had the foresight -- nay, vision! -- to unearth (literally, this rig was dirty) -- another link-up at Willow, the Mono Mercy link. Hence that fateful day, the skies at Willow have been bright (however the choss remains, the crowds are bigger, Huds...[more]   Browse More Classics in Wisconsin

Photos of Willow River State Park Slideshow Add Photo
Rock Climbing Photo: The Falls.
The Falls.
Rock Climbing Photo: Visual of lines at Willow Updated on 4/27/09
BETA PHOTO: Visual of lines at Willow Updated on 4/27/09
Rock Climbing Photo: Redpoint crux of 'Cain'.
Redpoint crux of 'Cain'.
Rock Climbing Photo: view of the falls from the top of daily grind.
view of the falls from the top of daily grind.
Rock Climbing Photo: A normal summer day!
A normal summer day!
Rock Climbing Photo: The Falls.
The Falls.
Rock Climbing Photo: Looking up at White Noise (left) and Daily Grind (...
Looking up at White Noise (left) and Daily Grind (...
Rock Climbing Photo: Willow
Rock Climbing Photo: the waterfall
the waterfall
Rock Climbing Photo: The falls.
The falls.
Rock Climbing Photo: Many different link-ups have been done by bored lo...
BETA PHOTO: Many different link-ups have been done by bored lo...
Rock Climbing Photo: Can't remember which route.  Sometime in 2006, I t...
Can't remember which route. Sometime in 2006, I t...
Rock Climbing Photo: view of the bridge from the top of daily grind.
view of the bridge from the top of daily grind.
Rock Climbing Photo: Our spring friend the snake
Our spring friend the snake
Rock Climbing Photo: if you value climbing at willow, please give back ...
if you value climbing at willow, please give back ...
Rock Climbing Photo: The cave.
The cave.
Rock Climbing Photo: A new season at Willow. Nearing the end of 'Natura...
A new season at Willow. Nearing the end of 'Natura...
Rock Climbing Photo: Willow
Rock Climbing Photo: during a rainy spell, the falls can get huge! phot...
during a rainy spell, the falls can get huge! phot...
Rock Climbing Photo: Not just another waterfall shot, climbing going on...
Not just another waterfall shot, climbing going on...
Rock Climbing Photo: Watch out for the little guys
Watch out for the little guys
Rock Climbing Photo: White Noise or Daily Grind, 2005?
White Noise or Daily Grind, 2005?
Rock Climbing Photo: New park climbing rules and hours open sign at cli...
BETA PHOTO: New park climbing rules and hours open sign at cli...
Rock Climbing Photo: Willow Roof
Willow Roof

Show All 24 Photos

Only the first 24 are shown above.

Comments on Willow River State Park Add Comment
Show which comments
Comments displayed oldest to newestSkip Ahead to the Most Recent Dated Apr 7, 2016
By John W. Knoernschild
From: Wisconsin
Sep 22, 2008
This area is sorely lacking in photos. Let's see some more photos of the routes and climbers actually on them. That would be great!
By george reynolds
May 9, 2009
I am confused at the state of affairs of this climbing area, it says that the use of fixed protection is prohibited does this mean that no more bolts can be placed or that people cant use existing bolts??? as far as the other bluff goes is climbing allowed at all or is it closed??? they way the description is written seems to gives an impression that its a locals only crag and that all others should not attend?? whats the story here???
By Chris Hirsch
From: Rapid City, SD
May 9, 2009
The whole situation with Willow is a bit confusing. You certainly can use existing bolts, but as for placing new ones or replacing old ones it is best to consult Jeff Engel (as it states in the guidebook). But what I think Colin may be referring to is quickdraws, it is prohibited to leave your gear hanging overnight. The other cliff opposite the Main Amphitheater is permanently closed to climbing, those bolts have been removed. Willow is somewhat of a local's only crag (not in the private sense of course) due to the unusual restrictions that are enforced, and it being only 30min from downtown St. Paul. Most out-of-town climbers can't make it here during a weekday, and there is practically no climbing allowed on the weekend. It's a shame since this place is such a gem! In the last couple years there has been a boom in the number of climbers coming here, which is awesome!! But "all others" are more than welcome to check this sick crag out, I'd say it's well worth the visit if you can get a day or two off from work. Especially in the summer, this is a great summer time crag.
By george reynolds
May 13, 2009
thanks for the info the area looks amazing but i didnt want to step on anybody's toes or cause a problem by just showing up and not knowing the whole story.
By John W. Knoernschild
From: Wisconsin
Jun 25, 2009
Just to shed some more light on the climbing times..... The park is open during the weekdays from 6am to 11pm. Mon-Thurs, you can climb during those hours. Friday only till noon, saturday closed, and sunday only till noon.
By Nathan Migdal
From: Bloomington, mn
Oct 20, 2009
I wonder why there's no mention of the not-too-bad bouldering adjacent to the falls. It's obvious that the sport route quality trumps any bouldering here to the nth degree, but if nobody brings up a few of the better "problems" and traverses on the left side of Willow Falls, I'd be glad to. Anyone who wants to beat me to the punch, go ahead. At this point, I'm not going to name anything: probably just describe the problems and take a few photos.
By AntVicino
Mar 8, 2010
Nathan, what side of the falls are you talking about? The side with all the routes or the other side? The other side of the falls is off limits to climbing, even bouldering, so if you are climbing over there, you should stop. If you are talking about the little bit of rock right underneath the main amphitheater, then that rock is super loose and chossy and totally not worth traveling out to Willow for.
By Nathan Migdal
From: Bloomington, mn
Mar 30, 2010
Heheheh. Willow as a "bouldering destination": that would set em up for disappointment huh? What I refer to are some of the great warm up traverses beneath the amphitheater that don't involve topping out so much as long traverses to finishing holds. Similar to gym problems in concept I suppose. A few clean boulder problems sit amidst the amphitheater chockstones but they tend to be over just as soon as they start. My goal for posting is to briefly describe where leaders can warm up below the main wall before taking off into the stratosphere. None of these four or five problems will include stone on the "off limits" side of the falls. Anything too chossy will not be included. A few should be up by August let's say.
By J.Flunker
May 5, 2010
How is the seepage factor at this time of year?
By AntVicino
May 7, 2010
Sudden Shock is the only route that suffers from any sort of consistent seepage. This time of the year it is perfectly fine. The route is as dry as it ever is.
By J.Flunker
May 8, 2010
Thanks antvicino
By Joe O'Shea
Jun 13, 2010
sudden shock is wet and slimy lower on the route depending on the moisture in the air, and if it's been consistantly rainy. The slippery stuff normally doesn't affect any of the harder moves anyway
By AntVicino
Jun 21, 2010
The wetness of Sudden Shock is a result of some rock that broke inside the wall a couple years ago. The seepage usually only hits the large ledge at the third bolt, just dont go too far back on the ledge, for it will be muddy, otherwise it will be perfectly dry.
By AntVicino
Oct 19, 2010
10/18/2010 I cleaned two draws off the anchors of Natural Selection. If these belong to you, shoot me a message and I will get them back to you.
By AntVicino
Oct 24, 2010
  • Begin shameless promotion*

For those that are interested, by the way, there will be a specific Willow River Guidebook coming out in the next couple months or so. The guidebook will be very useful because the nature of Willow and its linkups make it very hard deciphering where certain lines go. There will also be information in the guidebook about climbs not yet listed on Mountain Project. You'll be able to pick up the book from before also being released to Vertical Endeavors and Midwest Mountaineering. If you want more information you can message myself or Ryan Angelo.

  • End shameless promotion*
By Joe O'Shea
Oct 29, 2010
Theres a cool alternative start to sudden shock, start under the large roof to the left
By AntVicino
Dec 28, 2010
The Willow River Guidebook will be available at Vertical Endeavors, Midwest Mountaineering, and by the end of this week. In the land of link-ups, this book will prove very useful. Come check it out!
By Evan Fales
From: Iowa City, IA
Sep 9, 2011
Can someone explain to me why climbing is so restricted in this area on weekends? There appear to be no such restrictions on camping there.
By Chris treggE
From: Madison, WI
Sep 9, 2011
Evan pick up the new guidebook at a local shop! Good explanation in there.
By randy baum
From: Minneapolis, MN
Oct 10, 2011
This year's event will be hosted by the Minnesota Climbing COOP. The Willow River Clean-Up will be on Sunday, October 16, 2011 from 12-5p.

Please check-in at the park office and then continue to the maintenance shed. If you do not have a parking sticker, pick up a temporary sticker at the park office.

Make sure to wear appropriate clothing and bring work gloves and have plenty of water.

THINGS TO DO: litter pick up, break new trail, replace anchors & bolts, build benches, & trail maintenance.

See your there!

For more information/questions/comments:
By Ryan Angelo
Mar 13, 2012
Its willow season and the willow river guidebooks are now $15.95 with free shipping (was $19.95) at
By J.Roatch
From: Leavenworth, WA
Mar 14, 2012
So I lead the climb farthest left in the really crumbly/breaking rock area (not a big fan) and I was given the impression by some other climbers that it was newly bolted since last year (2011). Anyone have any information on it? Some of the bolts on it did not look very new, but the top were in very good condition. The route starts far left, (just left of jar of flies) and trails up just left to jar of flies and then goes left at a small "arete" where it ends. You could set up a top rope for it from jar of flies with a little traversing, or just use the same anchors for a bit of it while trailing a rope and set it up. I think I'd give it a 5.10 rating.

By Tyler
Jun 27, 2012
I have someones Scarpa shoes, left a couple of weeks ago at Willow.
Email me at with scarpa type, color and size if you want them back.
By ErikaE
Sep 3, 2012
What's the season like at Willow? How late into the fall can you climb? Can this info be added into the area description? Can you find partners locally when you want them?

I just moved to Chicago, hoping to make it up this fall! Looks rad. :)
By randy baum
From: Minneapolis, MN
Sep 4, 2012
hi erika,

as long as the temps are 40 and above, you can climb at willow. this means it's possible to climb there nearly every month of the year. during last year's mild winter, for example, i got out twice in february. in a "normal" MN winter, however, the season wraps up in late november and opens again in mid-march.

i'll add this info to the description.

as for finding partners, post on this site, check out the climbing meetup group, or visit any of the local gyms (vertical endeavors two locations or the minnesota climbing co-op, which has open hours 5:30-9:30 on monday, wednesday, and friday). lastly, if the temps are good, chances are high that you'll find a partner at the crag.
By CharlesErickson
From: Evergreen, CO
Sep 26, 2012
Willow River Climbers,

Just out of curiosity-

I know that a clean up was held at Willow River last year, sometime in October if I remember correctly, will that be happening again this year?

By David P. Pierce
From: Minneapolis, MN
Sep 26, 2012
Hey Charles, the cleanup will be Sunday October 14th this year starting at noon. You can get more details or ask questions on the Facebook event page,
By Doug Hemken
Oct 29, 2012
Am I right in thinking the new hunting proposal (extended seasons) won't affect climbing here much?
By randy baum
From: Minneapolis, MN
Oct 29, 2012
doug, you're correct. the climbing area, which is located at the falls, falls just outside of the hunting area. and aside from the falls, there are no other climbing areas located in the park, so we're in the clear.
By Doug Hemken
Oct 29, 2012
Thanks Randy! You should look at some of the other property maps, too. I think Interstate is also no problem for climbing?
By randy baum
From: Minneapolis, MN
Oct 31, 2012
yep, doug. interstate (aka taylors falls) is good to go, as well. (i was there today, in fact.)

in terms of being in harms way of hunters, the problematic areas are sandstone (the bouldering area only), swede's forrest, and the duluth areas, especially the lake county road 6 crags (sawmill, mystic mountain, section 13, ely's). wear orange and be alert!

doug, we need to meet up. i'm planning a trip to dl/madison sometime this winter. there are many problems at the lake that i want to try. i also want to stop by madison for a bite and a drink. i'll contact you with dates when i get a time frame figured out.
By Walter De Kock
May 8, 2013
How easy is it to TR at Willow? I haven't tried climbing at the falls and am not solid enough on sport.I've been to the falls a lot, and know that the overhang is pretty significant.
By Byron
From: Tucson, AZ
May 14, 2013
Walter. The first couple (2-3) climbs can be decently TR'd (please use your own draws for anchors): Jar of Flies, Daily Grind, and White Noise. For the others it gets steep pretty fast but you can give some of them a burn by seconding. Not sure about the climbs on the Mezzanine.
By randy baum
From: Minneapolis, MN
May 17, 2013
Curious as to which Willow 5.12c is the hardest? Which 13b? Here's a list of Willow routes from easiest to hardest, irrespective of the Mountain Project grade.

This list was compiled by myself and some longtime Willow locals. With only a handful of true lines, climbing at Willow can get repetitive. These lists help keep things fresh. Happy climbing and watch out for falling choss. :)
By Scott7777
Jun 28, 2013
WIth all the rain lately is the cave climbable?
By Roberto de la Riva
Jul 3, 2013
Hey all,

I'm looking for a climbing partner, I want to send most of the routes here and I got some time on my hands. Please call email me if you are interested.
By randy baum
From: Minneapolis, MN
Mar 22, 2014
climb all 5.12s in a single after-work session. draws must be hung by climber. there are 14 5.12s in all. i have excluded one-move linkups like natural daydreams, surf selection, and new beginnings. no prize to the winner. just lots of enduro gained.

here are the routes (listed left-to-right):

sudden day dreams, 12a
midsummer day dreams, 12c
natural selection, 12b
tsunami, 12d
middle cyclone, 12c
genesis effect, 12d
couch time, 12c
cypher 2, 12c
brass monkey, 12d
water music, 12a
left overs, 12a
fox compressor, 12c
sunday sermon, 12b
dopler effect, 12a
By Chris treggE
From: Madison, WI
Jul 16, 2015
Randy - is it time to organize these routes from Left to Right?

It's been ages since I climbed at Willow, otherwise I would try to tackle this myself.

Anyone care to try to take this on?
By madisonchoss
Jul 17, 2015
Or draw a topo if any of the MN crew wants to reveal their true stance on linkups.... Shit this is in Wisconsin.

But the Cave Boulder! Shit, also in Wisconsin.

God damnit.
By Mark Lutterman
Mar 25, 2016
Randy or others. I don't see anything here about the negotiated access for off-season access all day Sundays Sept 15th to May 15th. Can someone confirm that as of 2015 Willow is now open all day Sundays until May 15th and will reopen after Sept 15th? I had fun October 2015 climbing there with lots of others late on a Sunday.
By randy baum
From: Minneapolis, MN
Apr 7, 2016
madisonchoss, willow seceded to MN years ago. aside from you and nimmer, willow had no able bodied curators to speak of in the badger state. it was further saddened by the wisco crews aversion to bolts and love of lowball, contrived chunks of quarzite. now, willow rests easy in the arms of those from god's country, lovers of limestone choss, shitty link-ups, and terrible climbing conditions.

mark, i've updated the access details. see the description above.

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“MSP previously focused mainly on new property developments in the Western Cape. Apart from now also developing our business in Gauteng, we have positioned ourselves to help our customers move to so much more,” says Riaan. “We recognise the fact that technology and innovation in our industry help make the whole process of buying or renting a home and getting sound property advice, much easier and more accessible for customers.
“We aim to provide the answers, offering our customers good quality and accessible lifestyle investment opportunities and property solutions to help them make the right moves in life.”

Riaan explains that MSP will continue with its important role of developing communities through offering superior quality homes. “For the last 15 years, we’ve delivered property solutions with integrity and honesty. As we strive to be the top property solutions company in the country, we endeavour to continue stimulating local economies, creating jobs and maintaining the highest ethical standards in our business dealings.
“We aim to deliver our property promises in a professional and friendly manner to serve our wide range of customers excellently. Whether our customers want to move to an affordable home or have a budget of R4m or more to spend on their dream home, or whether they need a property partner to help move their business into the future, we are there to help them move.

“This is precisely where our six business units come into play. Each unit presides over a team of property professionals specialising in their unit’s offering to assist customers in making the right move,” he says.

MSP’s six business units:

MSP’s Sales business now brings resales of residential properties to the market. With a knowledgeable team of property professionals on board, MSP has what it takes to help customers make the right property moves.

MSP’s Rentals business already manages a portfolio worth more than R1 billion, taking care of customers looking to move into a suitable rental property. Backed by an in-house maintenance team, renting has never before been so convenient.

MSP’s Developments unit aims to grow new residential properties where the emphasis is on quality, security, sustainability and helping families move forward with the times. We achieve this along with our committed in-house construction team and contractor partners.

MSP has segmented its Retirement business to focus on the unique property needs and requirements of this market.

MSP’s Commercial properties are well situated to help businesses – from small family businesses to large corporates – move their operations into the future by supplying suitable and well-maintained properties. Once again, supported by the in-house maintenance team, commercial customers can rest assured their property solutions are well managed and maintained.

Everyone knows it costs money to make a move. MSP steps in with property-related financing. Whether customers need short- or long-term insurance or a home loan, or agents who require bridging finance, MSP’s Finance team will continue to assist with a seamless move in the same way that they have been doing for more than 10 years.

Riaan continues: “While MSP has rebranded and expanded – and are positioning ourselves to extend our reach into Gauteng - our values remain the same. We are committed to move forward as a family of property professionals looking to help regular families and businesses move to their new beginnings.
“Everything that MSP has managed to achieve in a short space of time has proven that we’re capable of moving mountains for ourselves and our customers. We believe by growing our business to offer comprehensive property solutions in the Western Cape and Gauteng, we’re making our best move yet and we invite you along on MSP’s journey into the future,” concludes Riaan.

Find out more about MSP or join MSP’s growing team of property professionals.

Author: Multi Spectrum Property

Submitted 02 Feb 17 / Views 989


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Last updateFri, 24 Mar 2017 5pm

Back You are here: Home Calendar Event Calendar Tour de Cypress Bike Ride and Run
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Tour de Cypress Bike Ride and Run

Saturday, April 19, 2014 07:00am
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The 10th Annual Tour de Cypress Bike Ride and Tour of Mount Vernon is being sponsored by the Mount Vernon Rotary Club to benefit international and club charities. The weekend will begin Friday, April 19, with a Heroes Barbecue sponsored by the Rotary Club at the Franklin County Airport. The bike rides will begin at the square at 9 a.m. A 5K and 10K run will be for Saturday afternoon.

Location : Downton Mount Vernon
Contact : Pat Wright, 903-537-4241


text:
Lens help again, please.

Discussion in 'Help and Feedback' started by Sunflower, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. Sunflower

    Sunflower Mu-43 Rookie

    May 7, 2013
    Susie Kelly
    I'm trying to find the perfect lens for my Olympus Pen Mini. I have the kit lens that comes with it, and a Panasonic Lumix 45-200 mm. lens. Have also tried using Canon lenses with the adapter, but really don't seem able to get any decent results with manual focusing.

    The Panasonic does produce some good photos, but it's heavy and a bit cumbersome on the body of the Pen Mini.

    In another thread, Spatulaboy recommended the Panasonic Lumix 20mm f1.7. So I was about to buy one, when a friend came over and was playing with my camera. He pointed out that the maximum aperture on the Pen Mini is f3.5, so what would I gain by attaching a lens with an f1.7 aperture?

    Could some kind person explain, please, because it's all a mystery to me. :eek::eek:
  2. kreegah bundolo

    kreegah bundolo Mu-43 Regular

    Mar 25, 2013
    Sweden, north of the dalälv
    Your friend is blonde huh? ;)

    No, I´ve got a Pen Mini(PM1) and theres no maximum aparture, thats controlled by the lens. Your kitlens got a max ap of 3,5.
  3. alan1972

    alan1972 Mu-43 Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    Jun 23, 2012
    Malaga, Spain
    Alan Grant
    I'm not sure how your friend got the idea that the maximum 3.5 related to the camera rather than the lens. I use the Panasonic 20mm on the E-PM1 and I can confirm it can definitely be used at f1.7.

    If you like the focal length range of the 45-200 but find it too heavy as you suggested, maybe look at the Olympus 40-150mm. Obviously you lose a bit or range at the long end but weight certainly won't be an issue, it's a very light lens (although not compact when extended for use). And it can often be found quite cheaply.
  4. CiaranCReilly

    CiaranCReilly Mu-43 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2012
    Ciaran Reilly
    OP, please don't be put off by the dismissive attitude of the previous poster.

    "Aperture" is a property of a lens design. All micro 4/3 cameras will allow you use the full aperture range of all micro 4/3 lenses. The aperture setting is controlled by the camera for the mainstream lenses, such as the Panasonic 20mm, while some special micro 4/3 lenses have aperture control on the lens barrel itself. (For adapted lenses, some have an aperture control, while others rely on electronic communication with their own type of camera body to set aperture, and this can't be changed on a micro 4/3 body (at least with any adapter currently available that I know of)).

    It certainly is a very confusing area, and for me the only way I learned about these things was by reading far and wide.

    There probably isn't really such thing as a perfect lens, and even if you think you've found it, you will eventually want something else! :smile: Each micro 4/3 lens has its good and bad points. The best advice I've received is to only consider buying new gear when your photography is constrained by the limits of your present gear.
  5. Sunflower

    Sunflower Mu-43 Rookie

    May 7, 2013
    Susie Kelly
    Thanks to you all for your feedback and for clarifying.

    I think the reason my friend (male, black hair!) assumed that the camera was controlling the aperture was because we could not get the Panasonic to go lower than f3.5. We were in bright daylight, set on Aperture priority. I've never been able to set the aperture lower than f3.5. Is that something I'm doing wrong, or a setting inside the camera that I've missed?

    Please bear with me. I'm trying to learn!
  6. monk3y

    monk3y Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    May 14, 2013
    in The Cloud...
    You have this lens right?
    It's a 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 II

    Which means the aperture will never open more than f/3.5 coz the lens' maximum aperture is only f3.5 at the widest focal length (14mm) and f/5.6 at the longest focal length (42mm).

    If you get a fast lens like the 20mm f/1.7 then that's the time you can open the aperture all the way to f/1.7.

    As has been pointed out, aperture size is a property of the lens not the body.
  7. madogvelkor

    madogvelkor Mu-43 Top Veteran

    Feb 22, 2013
    No worries! If you have a Panasonic or Olympus lens attached the camera will automatically detect what the lowest aperture the lens is capable of, and won't let you set anything lower than that. So if you have a lens that can only do 3.5, that's all the camera will let you set it at. If you put the 20 1.7 on there it would let you go down to 1.7.

    On manual focus lenses without any electrical or automatic components you would have to set the aperture on the lens itself, usually by a rotating ring.
  8. madogvelkor

    madogvelkor Mu-43 Top Veteran

    Feb 22, 2013
    The 20mm is a great lens, but it serves a very different purpose than the 45-200.

    The 20mm is considered a normal lens -- the view it gives is similar to what you see youself without any distortion. And it is a fixed lens so you can't zoom it. Typically fixed lenses are sharper than zoom lenses, physically smaller, and have wider apertures allowing better shooting in low light and more control over depth of field.

    Zooms on the other hand are a lot more versatile and replace multiple fixed lenses, but at the cost of being larger, slower, and less sharp.

    The 45-200 is a telephoto zoom, and is basically intended to capture images from a distance. This lens is one of the larger ones, I had it myself and ended up getting rid of it because of that.

    If you want a smaller telephoto zoom, the Panasonic 45-150 is probably the smallest and lightest out there right now. There's a picture of the two next to each other on this page: Panasonic Lumix Vario 45-150mm Sample Photos

    I haven't used the Olympus 40-150, but it is another good option. You can get it for about $50 less new: Olympus M.40-150mm R f/4.0-5.6 R Silver | Lenses | Olympus at Unique Photo
  9. Sunflower

    Sunflower Mu-43 Rookie

    May 7, 2013
    Susie Kelly
    Again, thank you all for your time. :smile:

    I've now learned what I need to know, and realised what happened as soon as I took a photo of the lens in question, the Panasonic Lumix 45-200 mm.

    My friend had said that it had a maximum aperture of f1.4. But when I took the photo of the lens to post here, I saw straight away that he had misread the lens information. The maximum aperture is f4.

     View attachment 286410 "500" height="497" alt="Lens">

    So the mystery is solved and I can stop :dash2:

  10. alan1972

    alan1972 Mu-43 Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    Jun 23, 2012
    Malaga, Spain
    Alan Grant
    That certainly explains it! I guess the ratio sign ":" could be mistaken for "." at a quick glance. (I don't even want to think about how much a lens of that range would cost and weigh if it really had a 1.4 aperture).

    Just to be make sure there is no further confusion, the other zooms mentioned by myself and other posters as possible alternatives to the 45-200 have the same or very similar aperture ranges - they are alternatives in the sense of being lighter, but they won't get you any further if low light is your problem. The 20mm on the other hand genuinely has a significantly larger (brighter) aperture than the kit zoom. It also makes a nice compact pairing with the E-PM1.
  11. sammykhalifa

    sammykhalifa Mu-43 Top Veteran

    Jun 22, 2012
    Pittsburgh PA
    For a while all I had was your 45-200 and the very small Panasonic 14mm, and I thought was a pretty nice combo. The wide angle and the zoom went pretty well together, I think. You can get the 14mm for about 150 bucks if you look around a bit, and I imagine that it would make for a pretty awesome small package with your e-PM.

    Now I have both the 14 and the 20mm you've already been talking about, and I like them both.


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Mortgage Application Volume Falls 11 Percent

Washington, D.C.–Mortgage application volume dropped 11.1 percent in the week ending April 25, the Mortgage Bankers Association said.The Washington, D.C.-headquartered association’s application index declined from 637.6 the week before to 567, according to BusinessWeek.Purchase application volume fell 4.8 percent. Refinance volume declined 16.7 percent. Refinance applications comprised 45.7 percent of all applications.The index hit its record high–1,856.7–in May 2003.


text:
to buy flights for my parents

(40 Posts)
Smetana Sun 10-Mar-13 12:48:33

My parents have their 40th anniversary this year, they're 63 and 59, and I would like to get them flights somewhere (Sweden or Denmark, as they love Scandi-drama). The problem is they've never flown before, and only went abroad to visit me when I lived in France a few years ago, and would be very nervous about it. My brother has also never flown, thinks it's a bad idea.

A family trait we all share is that we're not very adventurous - however, I was the first in the family to go to university, and through that and my later work, I've been really lucky to travel. I worry that my parents are falling into retirement - they say they're not happy, and they don't have things to look forward to, but they're terrified (as is my brother) of doing nice things.

I think this would a really good opportunity to have a holiday, and give them a push to do something new. What would you do? I know I'm pushing my views onto them a little, but if they got to Sweden, they'd love it.

BeeBopDingALing Sun 10-Mar-13 18:51:53

I would get them the flights but tell them that is what you want to do and ask them first.

honeytea Sun 10-Mar-13 18:28:38

My grandparents fly to stay with us from Bristol to Edinburgh or Amsterdam and then to Stockholm. They are both well traveled but much prefer the smaller airports.

When we're you thinking of booking the holiday? In Sweden the summer tends to peak sooner than the UK, June/July are lovely but August/September can be chilly/autumnal and the rest of the year is bloody cold, slippery and dark.

ThePinkOcelot Sun 10-Mar-13 17:29:38

My parents went on their first holiday in their early sixties, having never flown before. There was no stopping them after that.
My mum has just come back from a 3 month stay with my sister in Australia. Travelled herself from Perth, via Dubai to Newcastle and she is 84!
I think once they are over the initial worry of doing it, they would love it.

Iaintdunnuffink Sun 10-Mar-13 15:42:41

I would go with a tour or an organised package, just flights to somewhere cold be quite daunting.

I've been meaning to do one of the DFDS weekend breaks, they change them depending on time of year.

Waswondering Sun 10-Mar-13 14:55:59

Or could you do a day trip somewhere the three of you? Eg first flight to Amsterdam in the morning, lovely day, then fly home that night ....

quoteunquote Sun 10-Mar-13 14:32:17

A flight to Dublin or somewhere english speaking, they will love it, I bet they get the bug and get adventurous.

Smetana Sun 10-Mar-13 14:13:55

They have passports - travel insurance would be an additional cost

Arithmeticulous Sun 10-Mar-13 14:06:29

What about passports and travel insurance?

Smetana Sun 10-Mar-13 13:47:01

I'm keen to encourage them to fly, rather than to go to Scandinavia per se - I think Scandinavia is somewhere they'd like to go, and the flight would be short, people speak english, etc

WorriedTeenMum Sun 10-Mar-13 13:42:01

I actually think it is a good idea. How about looking at flights between smaller airports? Especially at the overseas end. Smaller airports can be a lot more manageable than larger airports. Not quite where you are aiming for but Rotterdam airport is tiny and very easy to manage.

Waswondering Sun 10-Mar-13 13:40:11

(My parents LOVE Cunard cruises ... They have been on the Queen Elizabeth and rare it. Excellent shows at night, and enough activities to fill every waking minute.)

Trills Sun 10-Mar-13 13:38:18

Cruise sounds like a very good idea - my aunt and uncle have done similar ones and enjoyed them a lot.

Smetana Sun 10-Mar-13 13:37:25

That cruise sounds a good idea to be honest - I don't think I'm going to be able to encourage them to fly, which I think is a shame. Thank you

Waswondering Sun 10-Mar-13 13:36:01

I don't know what your budget is but Cunard have a 7 day cruise from Southampton taking in 4 or 5 Scandinavian cities from £599 pp. all food and entertainment would be included .... Very safe way to travel and other guests probably a similar age. Good reputation too, so as a first introduction, could be good for them ...

Smetana Sun 10-Mar-13 13:28:24

Thanks for the tips - part of the logic of scandinavia is that there wouldn't be a language problem. They're not keen on the idea of being on a coach with other people, they're not sociable - I may have to look at going with them

schoolchauffeur Sun 10-Mar-13 13:19:57

Have you tried something like this allows you to choose flight/hotel and add on extras like tours booked in advance. So they would have some "safety net" of an organised trips, but also some freedom fo their own and not have to herded round on a full coach tour.

HazleNutt Sun 10-Mar-13 13:18:50

PILs are the same and no, I would not just get them tickets. They would be too nervous to enjoy it. We are buying them a trip to Baltics and Sankt-Petersburg, but going with them. If you can't, then get either a package tour or possibly cruise. Or maybe some friends of theirs could join?

SoftSheen Sun 10-Mar-13 13:17:28

Should add, Stockholm is very clean, organised and efficient, and most people speak some English, which would probably be reassuring for nervous travellers!

Kat101 Sun 10-Mar-13 13:17:06

Also, do they do nice things when at home? Thinking U3A, Age UK and all the other organisations / clubs for retired people. What are their interests? There is a plethera of activites and interests for newly retired people, its just getting the message out there.

Saga holidays (does that still exist?)

SoftSheen Sun 10-Mar-13 13:15:04

I think it's a lovely idea. I agree with others that it might be better to get them a package rather than just flights, if you can afford it, as then they won't need to worry about organising hotels etc. Perhaps you could drive them to the airport and help them check in?

Stockholm was the first place I ever flew to (I was 19) and it is a lovely city- perfect for a short city break.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Sun 10-Mar-13 13:14:29

Yes, how about cruising over to Denmark or Oslo if they like Scandinavia?

And if you have the money, and they do, how about a short flight somewhere together, depending on where you live so you can go along and hold their hands, as it were. Jersey maybe?

I know what you mean about parents falling into retirement - mine moulder around the house feeling old and retired, doing nothing simply because they don't want to organise it. I'm scared that one day soon they really WILL be old and it will be too late sad

Kat101 Sun 10-Mar-13 13:11:54

They need at the very least, a package where everything is laid on and they have no responsibility for arrangements. I feel for them, I haven't travelled for years (kids, money etc) and I am out of the habit. I am scared of all the things that could go wrong and not having the familiar uk security blanket (police, nhs etc) to go to. I am going to force myself to book a package med hol next year to try and ease myself in slowly.

Would they enjoy this hol you are planning, or would they be so stressed in the run up that you'd end up wishing you hadn't bothered?

SaltaKatten Sun 10-Mar-13 13:07:51

You can get cruises that take you to Copenhagen and Oslo.

Smetana Sun 10-Mar-13 13:06:44

it is the process of checking in at the airport that worries them I think. I'm going to look into packages - I'm really worried about them right now

Trills Sun 10-Mar-13 13:05:31

YWB a bit U, I think.

Just flights, to a country that they don't know, when they are nervous travellers, sounds like the sort of gift that becomes a burden.

A package or escorted tour would be better and less stressful for them (but a lot more expensive for you, I know).

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text:
First AND surname concerns argh!

(10 Posts)
poppingcandy89 Tue 01-Mar-16 17:06:21

Ok so my first and biggest issue is I cannot for the life of me think of a name for my daughter that I like for longer than a few weeks! I've looked online/in baby books etc and NOTHING jumps out as being 'the' one, if that makes sense? With my son I just knew the name I wanted and I love it so much still 7 years later.

Secondly, my boyfriend wants baby to have his surname. I'm torn on this. We have been together for 6 months and I'm 19 weeks pregnant... He's been fab and supportive and we are buying a house together but I'm still unsure. My biggest regret with my son was giving him his dad's surname at birth despite his father leaving me during pregnancy (I was trying to 'win' him back, was young and naive). So I'll potentially be in a situation where I'm going to the dentist with my children for instance and registering myself, Popping 'Smith', my son, a 'Jones' and my baby.

Any advice is very much welcomed!

MadameDePompom Tue 01-Mar-16 17:09:55

My biggest regret with my son was giving him his dad's surname at birth

You know the answer already. Give the baby either your surname or both surnames. Can you also add your surname to your DS1's name so you all have one surname in common?

IoraRua Tue 01-Mar-16 17:11:47

Double barrell the surname.
As for first names, if there are any you vaguely like post them here and I'll try think of some similar ones.

poppingcandy89 Tue 01-Mar-16 17:16:20

My boyfriend is Nigerian, his surname is Osholaja so I'm worried double barrell will be too much with that one!

poppingcandy89 Tue 01-Mar-16 17:17:08

So far Zara, Imogen, Scarlett and Katya but none are 'wowing' me...

Blu Tue 01-Mar-16 17:39:28

What about calling your dd Shola (or even Oshola) as a first name and then your surname?

I know a few Shola and Osholas.

julfin Wed 02-Mar-16 23:12:25

Osholaja would be a pretty middle name for a girl. Zara is lovely and goes nicely with osholaja. Zara osholaja smith. Or you could double-barrel: Zara osholaja-smith.

Don't give the baby just your DP's surname.

Re other first names, how about Katerina, Cara, Layla or Serena?

ABitAsleep Thu 03-Mar-16 12:50:50

I agree with the others, if you regretted giving your Son his fathers name, you may regret it this time too. Hopefully your partner will be understanding if he knows how you feel about your son's last name. You can always change them later, if you decide to get married or get more serious. You children may also change their own names when they are older too. I have known several people who changed their last name in their teens to their step-dads name or to their mothers maiden name.

As for first names, from you list i love Zara and adore Katya! How about;

LovelyBranches Fri 04-Mar-16 10:43:42

I love Zara, it's classic beautiful and it's my cousins name and she's lovely so very positive connotations.

squoosh Fri 04-Mar-16 10:46:17

Zara is my favourite too from the list OP. Gorgeous name.

And definitely give the baby your surname.

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text:
What do you use to carpet your bell tent?

(12 Posts)
Uppermid Mon 11-Feb-13 21:40:09

I personally would go for the coir - very bulky and heavy. Use a Hartford XXL carpet in ours, unfortunately I don't think they make them anymore.

OneHundredSecondsofSolitude Mon 11-Feb-13 21:36:23

I'd dismissed elf hair, it just doesn't match the bunting

LifeofPo Sun 03-Feb-13 09:56:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

chimchar Sun 03-Feb-13 09:51:26

We have a big tent carpet in our 5m. It is foil backed so helps a bit with insulation. It doesn't fit perfectly and we have to do the whole "lift up the pole and shuffle it under and stretch it out flat" thing, but it works!

I just wish we had bought blankets to match the flooring...it's all a bit mix n match! wink [poncey]

HiccupHaddockHorrendous Sat 02-Feb-13 17:15:22

I have three plastic backed picnic rugs. One goes under the central pole and one either side. My bell tent is a 3m so I don't have a huge space to cover.

shockers Mon 28-Jan-13 13:45:37

Slubberdegullion Mon 28-Jan-13 13:29:00

Woven elf hair. I bought a load of it cheap from a stall in Shrewsbury market (Tuesdays) and then got a mate with a loom to turn it into a round mat with a Velcro flap to go around the central pole.
Lovely it is, very soft and squashes up small to fit in a laundrette washing machine. Use wool soap on it though!

OneHundredSecondsofSolitude Mon 28-Jan-13 13:18:46

Thanks quote unquote I'll gave a look at those sites and eBay

Shockers, it's fab get one. Ours is a 5m zig and yes, I love it! I got a chandelier for it got Christmas so am eagerly awaiting camping season. Lets hope it's better than last summer eh

quoteunquote Mon 28-Jan-13 12:29:03

check out the really interesting tent company on FB for better pictures, they are brilliant, and will put a porch on your bell tent, which really improves bell tent life.

they will make you anything, everyone else copies them, but never as good quality, if you are not ready for a yurt, do check out the geo domes any size, because they are a brilliant alternative to bell tents, no central pole.

quoteunquote Mon 28-Jan-13 12:22:55

in all our tents we put down rugs,

just look for vintage kelims, vintage rugs, circler rugs, on ebay, go for smaller than the tent, you don't want to be touching the edges, you don't need them to go right out to edge either. over lapping small oblong ones work well also,

or go down to the local auction house, they come up a lot, I usually pay about £25 for them, a thin kelim does a brilliant job and rolls up to pack easily, they feel nice to sit on, we have a few old tatty persian rugs which are brilliant for camping, I chuck them down outside during the day for people to lounge on, last one to bed rolls them up, they last forever, as long as you make sure they are bone dry before you store.

I've managed to find round ones for all our bell tents, and yurts.

Ring the auction houses and ask them to let you know if any round ones come in.

shockers Mon 28-Jan-13 12:09:58

I haven't got a bell tent, but want one, so if it's ok with you, I'll lurk here until someone answers.

What size is yours... do you love it?

OneHundredSecondsofSolitude Sun 27-Jan-13 21:44:04

I keep looking at coir matting but it's so expensive

We've been using various fleecy throws and rugs but it always looks messy

Has anyone found an affordable, transportable solution?

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text:
How can we convince her to let SD come to our house without legal action?

(35 Posts)
WickedStepMonster Fri 01-Feb-13 13:58:38

I've posted about something similar before, my BF has a 4yo daughter and his ex is refusing to let her come to our house. It looks like legal action is inevitable but I was wondering, if you were in her shoes, what would it take for you to accept the situation and let her visit and stop over? Is it just going to take time and hoping she realises it's what's best for their daughter? Or would things like photos of the house and her bedroom, a letter, books she can read to her about the fact they're not together any more, would these things help or make it worse?

She was almost coming round but then she found that I had been there on one of BFs access days and she threatened to stop access all together.

I know there's nothing I can do, I'm just trying to be supportive to BF, but I'd like to be able to offer him some ideas for easing the tension.

NatashaBee Fri 01-Feb-13 14:07:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WickedStepMonster Fri 01-Feb-13 14:25:48

He sees her once a week, for a full day. There was a phased plan agreed (all on her terms) but that went out of the window after the day I spent with LO. The latest message from her was threatening to stop access if I am involved and that she is starting divorce proceedings and he should expect a letter imminently (he hasn't received anything yet). I doubt she would want to meet me, unless it was to slit my throat.

NothingIsAsBadAsItSeems Fri 01-Feb-13 15:06:32

How long have you been with your bf and were you the reason for the split? These could possibly help to influence her decision.

I'd want to meet you and make sure we were on the same page re my child before you met him and would be less than impressed that you'd technically gone behind my back and met him already.

Good thing we have no intention of spliting up as I can just see me and DH interviewing each others new partners to assess their worthiness maybe slightly overprotective

JustFoldingStars Fri 01-Feb-13 15:14:57

I hope this doesn't come accross as accusing but did you break the agreed phased plan when you spent the day with LO or was that the next step that she was aware of but has since changed her mind?

sanityseeker75 Fri 01-Feb-13 15:24:53

How long have you been together? IF there was a phased plan in place did that include phasing you in to the LO life? If so why did you jump the gun a bit? If contact has been stopped then I suggest he seek legal advise and asks for a letter to go reinstating visits with immediate effect until the court hearing but be aware initially you may not be there - once it goes through court I doubt if they would enforce you being absent unless you were considered a risk to the LO.

Mueslimorning Fri 01-Feb-13 15:51:23

Op, it should not matter if you are ow or not. Dd has right to see her dad and vice versa. In my case I did not vet the new woman in ex life, my ds was about 7 when she Met him, married ex at some point, but I was always told many nice things about her by ds and that was enough for me. we met when I was dating now dh, and she and ex were pleased I invited them. We do all the arrangements between ourselves now and get along fine. I think she appreciated not being gawked at by me or made to feel she was on trial or something. Different story for me however, met dh ex when introduced to their dc. It was a disaster. Dss fine at 8, but dsd 12 followed ex nasty attitude to both me, never remotely ow, and dh. Still a problem 4 years on. But dss now moving in! So dsc do make up own minds when they want to, regardless of control freak mums. Good luck, xx

WickedStepMonster Fri 01-Feb-13 16:13:33

The phase plan was to do with LO visiting his (our) house but BF didn't mention me, he didn't know how much she knew about our relationship and didn't want to stir things up. We didn't see it as 'going behind her back' as we knew she had already introduce LO to a BF of hers.

JustFoldingStars Fri 01-Feb-13 16:31:59

Oh, these situations are so difficult!

I can only say that from my perspective it was very difficult to learn that my DS had spent the day with ex and new girlfriend and I did not even know he had a new girlfriend. So if she did not know about you and your BF didn't discuss it openly and honestly with her then perhaps her reaction is, if not right then understandable.

I understand you saying you didn't want to stir things up - ex said he didn't tell me because he did not want to upset me. It didn't occur to him that I would be more upset about the duplicity than if he had been upfront - it became a trust issue then!

However on the other hand I would never have introduced DS to a new BF without discussing it with ex first so I think from your & BF's point of view you are seeing double standards from her. And although I was very hurt and made my disappointment clear to ex, I did not and would not stop access over this.

I think perhaps some of your suggestions above would be nice, although don't take it too badly if they are "thown back in your face" - which they probably will be if she doesnt even want to meet you.

I'm sorry I don't have any definative advice for you, just to remember at all times that DD is the most important person in this situation. If you and BF continue to be open, honest and reasonable she may come round - although it will take time. And if she doesn't then you will have tried and this will be taken into account by the courts.

WickedStepMonster Fri 01-Feb-13 16:40:16

JustFoldingStars thanks, it's really frustrating because I can't do anything, it's up to BF, and he's reluctant to do anything that might make things worse.

I suggested he talks to her and explains everything so there are no more surprises (we're not sure if she realises that we're living together), but he doesn't want to risk a fight and more threats of stopping access. He says she can be very manipulative and I wouldn't put it past her to arrange things on his access day and tell him at the last minute.

The fact is, I feel a lot of empathy for her and wish I could speak to her myself but that is not an option. I suppose it will just take time and patience. I'm very nervous about developing my relationship with SD (as a step-child myself I know how fraught it could become) so I'd love to get into a routine as soon as possible.

sanityseeker75 Fri 01-Feb-13 16:53:08

I agree it doesn't matter if OW or not - just trying to understand reasoning behind Ex's behaviour (not that there is a reasoning for manipulating and using kids as a weapon).

We have faced issues with contact and then overnight visits. Many, many years on this is no longer an issue and have EW access smile

JustFoldingStars Fri 01-Feb-13 17:04:27

I think there are two things that you need to be thinking about

1 - She cannot stop access. She can make things diffcult temporarily but I believe the courts don't look highly on this and it is highly unlikely they will decide that LO should not see her father. They will decide what is in the best interests of the child and, unless there is a risk of abuse etc, that would be to have regular contact with her dad. If things do get that far and she then messes about with access that would be breaching the court's order and things can be taken further. Hopefully it won't get that far though!

2 - By being open and honest and letting her know the full and true facts of the situation you/BF are in the 'right'. If she reacts badly then she is in the wrong but you have done all you can to be have handled the situation correctly. You never know, she might just appreciate the effort given a little time!
If you hide things/are not honest (or if comes accross like that to her) then I'm sorry but IMO that makes you/BF in the wrong and she can use that as an excuse to not behave correctly herself - i.e. threatening resticted access.

At then end of the day I think you are right when you say you guess it will just take time and patience. Hopefully she will come round and realise that going down the "offical" route is not in the best interest of her DD and will be able to come to some agreement with your BF and acceptance of you.

mumandboys123 Fri 01-Feb-13 17:29:48

had to laugh at the 'empathy' thing...the woman my ex left me for once told me she had a lot of 'empathy' for me. Hilarious, really, when you think about how involved she was in lying and cheating and hiding and telling stories. There was - and never was - any empathy and if you have been involved in the breakdown of this woman's marriage, please don't pretend you either know or care how she's feeling.

I am assuming (my apologies if I'm assuming wrongly) that you are the 'other woman' in which case, things will always be difficult. That's not the children's fault, however, and there is a need to balance mum's sensitivities with the on-going rights of the children to a relationship with their father. Mediation is a good starting point if she will consider it - it would probably be worth sending an 'official' letter (from a solicitor) stating that you wish to sort things out 'for the sake of the children' and are happy to do so via mediation so that everyone's opinions get taken into account. However, in the same letter, you need to time limit her - give her 2 weeks to agree to mediation or say you will start court proceedings for a contact order. If she hasn't agreed to mediation at the end of the 2 weeks, proceed directly to court. There is a lot of information on the Families Need Fathers website about self-repping, it doesn't need to cost a fortune.

Within all of this, you do need to be aware of timescales and appropriateness - if you are the 'other woman' (sorry, I know that's a horrible title) and the relationship breakdown is recent (less than 6 months ago, maybe even up to a year), it may be considered inappropriate to have the children meet you. Any new partner shouldn't really expect an introduction prior to the 6 month mark and some kind of plan should be in place to make sure that the introduction is child-focused. You will need this info for court.

There is no need for 'vetting'. A parent is allowed to introduce their children to whoever they consider appropriate. I can't think of anything worse than meeting my ex's new partner and trying to be polite to her about life, the universe any anything. Would rather stick pins in my eyes. I have little respect for my ex, but I do know he loves our children and will do his best for him within his own definition of 'best'. There is no need for introductions or pretend friendliness. I certainly wouldn't take kindly to the 'other woman' sending me books on 'now mummy and daddy don't live together'. I am capable of parenting my own children, thanks!

Xalla Mon 04-Feb-13 06:54:01

I was in this situation once upon a time. I was never the 'other woman' - DH was never in a serious relationship with my DSD's mother let alone married to her but she still stopped contact when my DH and I started seeing each other.

We've been married for 5 years now and my DH has DSD 50% of the time. It's been a long, tedious journey for him to reach this point. For a long time it was very much a case of Mum saying "jump" and him saying "how high"?

I didn't really have a lot to do with my DSD until after the first 12 months of our relationship. We married about 12 months after that and it wasn't until we were married that my DH got decent contact restablished. I think my DSD's Mum realised at that point there really wasn't much she could do about our relationship.

I didn't and don't empathize with her to be honest; most of her behaviour was driven by her own insecurities / jealousy and had little if anything to do with DSD's wellbeing.

We had our own 'phased plan' - I can't quite remember the details of it but certainly it involved first my DH spending time with DSD at Mum's house, followed by me and DH spending time at Mum's house, followed by DSD coming to us a for a few hours. It quickly escalated to overnights at that point. I did have Mum over to 'inspect' our home was hideous and I don't recommend it!

The sorry fact is that if your DP is currently seeing his DD for only a few hours each week (far too little for a 4 year old to be seeing her Dad btw), he's not in a very strong position. If he goes down the court route, contact will most likely improve but it will be a long, slow and expensive process and he'll have to jump through all kinds of hoops. Imo he may as well try jumping through HER hoops for a while and see where it gets him.

You probably are going to have to take a back seat for a while but at the same time I think your DP should put a clear time limit on when you do start playing a part in his DD's life. Some posters higher up have suggested 6 months...that seems reasonable. He should insist his ex is clear that you're eventual involvement is inevitable and non-negotiable.

I know it's really hard when you love someone and you want to share their world but this is one of those things you just can't push too quickly. Patience is a virtue and all that. Good luck.

WickedStepMonster Mon 04-Feb-13 16:44:57

Xalla thanks for your post. Since my original post, the exw has started divorce proceedings. BF received a letter specifially stating that she will stop contact if I am involved. I can't believe her solicitor agreed to put that in the letter, it seems brazenly unreasonable.

The solicitor has also suggested mediation so I suppose that is a good sign, hopefully she will have no choice but to compromise, even if it does end up taking a bit longer.

Xalla Mon 04-Feb-13 17:06:47

Tell your DP to join Families Need Fathers. My DH got loads of advice and support from their forum. Xx

mumandboys123 Mon 04-Feb-13 17:09:17

solicitors on the whole do as they are told - they work for their clients. They can advise against something but in the end, if the client wants it, the clients wants it.

Petal02 Tue 05-Feb-13 09:57:46

Wickedstepmonster – whilst I can totally understand why you want to avoid legal proceedings, it sadly might end up going that way, otherwise the ex will call all the shots.

And regardless of whether or not you were the ‘other woman’, your DP has a legal right to see his daughter. One poster has suggested that if you were the ‘other woman’ then it may be inappropriate for the children to meet you – I doubt this stacks up legally. Surely your DP has the right for other people to be present during access, providing they don’t present a threat – the ex doesn’t get the right to choose who the daughter meets during access, heaven forbid. As for the “mother’s sensitivities” being considered – I doubt this stacks up legally either, otherwise access would be denied in millions of families.

I like Mumandboys’ suggestion of sending a solicitors letter, stating that you wish to sort things out, and are happy to do so via mediation. It’s not heading directly down the court route, but it does make it clear that any discussions/negotiations will be a structured, organised two-way decision, and not everyone jumping to the ex’s demands.

WickedStepMonster Tue 05-Feb-13 12:32:32

Petal02 legal proceedings are inevitable now, sadly, although at least there will be a chance for mediation. All her threats are so obviously about her personal feelings of anger and nothing to do with the child's welfare that the mediator should bring her down to earth pretty quickly.

NothingIsAsBadAsItSeems Tue 05-Feb-13 13:58:15

I still couldn't answer how long it would take for me, if I was in that situation, to let you and the ex have the dc overnight as it would depend on:

- How long ago we split, reasons for the split and are we still friends or at least on speaking terms?
- How long have you been with the ex? If the ex trusts you around our dc and I still trust exs ability to look after dc (again can't really answer unless I know the answers to Q1) then it could be sooner rather than later.
- What you are like with children? If dc came home after spending the day with you and ex and complained about how you treated them I'd have problems letting them stay over if you were around.

I'd also want to talk to ex about how serious his relationship was as I don't believe a string of 'aunts'/'uncles' coming and going from a childs life is healthy.

ladydeedy Tue 05-Feb-13 14:03:38

Solicitors will indeed write what the client wants. I would put little store by the letter. however, it does seem that legal action is the way ahead. The ex is making the situation all about her, not about the child. Your BF can introduce his daughter to whoever he likes - it is not the mother's decision and she cannot veto it (unless of course there's risk of danger etc). Sounds like she is being very short sighted in this case.
You are doing the right thing in trying to support your BF. Get court action going and then your BF will at least have something reasonable to work to in terms of access (currently far too little it seems, currently).

Petal02 Tue 05-Feb-13 15:10:17

Nothingisasbadasitseems whilst I can completely understand the sentiments behind your list of reasons why you would be reluctant for an ex and his new partner to have the child overnight, I doubt any of them carry any legal weight. As LadyDeedy said, the mother does not have the power to decide if/when the father should have access, nor can she dictate the company he keeps during that access. “Sour grapes” is not a good enough reason to deny a man access to his children.

WickedStepMonster Tue 05-Feb-13 15:47:20

Nothing what do any of those things have to do with a child's right to see her father? We live together, of course she needs to meet me.

Sadly that seems to the be the attitude she has, and it's so frustrating especially when she cites SDs emotional wellbeing as a reason for being so controlling.

NothingIsAsBadAsItSeems Tue 05-Feb-13 16:17:44

Wicked - I think they indicate how your bf's ex may see the situation which if you want to empathise with her or help to improve the situation without going to court you could take into account. She may genuinely feel that it isn't in their childs best interests to have overnight visits.

I know ds doesn't settle well if we leave him with relatives (he's 3), could that be why or at least part of the reason why she won't let their child stay with you both?

Petal02 Tue 05-Feb-13 16:25:09

So what are you suggesting – that the OP indulges the ex’s sensitivities, in the hope that things improve? They could find themselves tip-toeing round the ex forever. As I said in an earlier post, sour grapes is not a valid reason to withhold access.

And even if the ex insists that the child doesn’t settle well if she’s with her father and his new partner – is that a legally substantial reason to deny access? Would a court uphold this? I doubt it.

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Advice please - any students/teachers/Masters students - anybody!

(4 Posts)
showtime7 Mon 22-Aug-16 15:49:52

Okay, please give me your opinions/advice. I simply cannot make my mind up. Excuse poor writing but just to condense - Been in teaching 10 years, been deputy for last 3, teach far less now which I miss but am learning lots as DH.

Did a degree in English Lit (and got a first) - I am pretty passionate about reading!! Have been considering doing an MA for some time. I have spent hours looking at different courses and almost signed up for MA in Education through the OU. I have just finished the NPQSL (related to teaching) which was ok but not entirely stimulating. I love being in education, but, find writing essays about it extremely boring!

So - found a distance MA with perfect content of modern literature. Its over 4 years, so 40 credits for three years then one year dissertation. Have discussed it with the university who assure me that it is built to suit people like me.

I have a 17 year old son and a partner. I enjoy going to the gym to keep fit. I go back to work next week and know I will have long days. BUT - for so long I have wanted to study and deep down, literature is my 'thing'. I know it won't earn me more money etc. My long term plans are to teach abroad and I know I don't 'need' to do it. Tell me I am mad. Tell me I will or won't regret doing it. Any opinions will be appreciated. I am the only one in my large family to get a degree and I need to discuss this with people who have done it or are doing it. Thank you!

Leatherboundanddown Wed 21-Sep-16 13:34:18

You should totally do it. I did an MSc 2 days a week whilst working .6 FTE. You'll love it. Enjoy.

showtime7 Thu 22-Sep-16 10:39:07

I have been accepted for MA Modern Lit!

StrawberrytallCake Thu 22-Sep-16 10:43:46

Congratulations! I'm starting my MA in a couple of weeks - you know about the funding you can get now to cover costs?

Good luck smile

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holiday beauty treatments - wax and tan?

(3 Posts)
52dietname Tue 03-May-16 20:07:17

Can I get waxed and tanned on the same day or do I need to do the waxing first? Also is it worth getting your arm pits done?! I shave almost every day but it only takes seconds

Also can anyone tell me the difference please between a spray tan and a st tropez tan? I thought they were the same thing?

70isaLimitNotaTarget Tue 03-May-16 21:59:39

I wax myself (armpits/bikini/ moustache blush ) and epilate my legs.

I wouldn't do a wax and tan together TBH but maybe the salons do a post wax treatment that would allow? You risk all the little speckly bits from the hair follicles .

I would exfoliate, wax, use TeaTree (I have skinwash) then the next day light exfoliate, moisturise and tan.

Im planning a spray tan for my 50th <<grin>> but I;ll stick to my own waxing.

I would definately say armpit waxing is worth it, the most annoying bit is waiting for the hairs to grow long enough, but over time they grow softer and finer, and no razor rash.

JohnCheese Tue 03-May-16 22:04:16

I don't think most salons will wax and tan on the same day. You might end up dotty!!

Definitely worth armpit waxing. It is fantastic and IME the least painful of all waxing bits. 3 seconds and it's done.

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The Journal of Heart and Lung Transplantation
DOI: 10.1016/j.healun.2013.01.020
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National Theatre Season

Feb to July 17 season

Member booking from 6 February, general public from 24 February

New shows announced:
Barber Shop Chronicles

New performances announced for Amadeus in 2018

Continuing performances announced for:
Twelfth Night
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Final performances already announced for:
Angels in America
My Country: a work in progress
Hedda Gabler
Lost Without Words

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Key Election Websites

A reader asked me which websites are the best for gathering information about the midterms. I use several and here they are with brief reviews.

Cook Political Report: Lots of easy to access information in one spot, as well as a baseline analysis of every congressional district in the country. This is a subscription site.
FiveThirty-Eight:The New York Times did iteself a big favor when it scooped up superstar poll analyst Nate Silver.
Real Clear Politics: Usually has some of the most up-to-date polling data and an easy-to-use website.
For up-to-date news stories,you can't beat For example, this look at the levels of vulnerable House seats brings a great deal of clarity to understanding how the GOP could take over control of Congress this November. Ben Smith's blog at Politico not only has his own incisive reporting, but also has a great "Remainders" post at the end of the day with links to columns worth reading. If you are like me and you can't spend all day surfing the web, Ben Smith's blog is a great help in calling my attention to article I might otherwise miss.
Those are my favorite sites. What are yours?

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Incident management

Activities to minimise the immediate and long-term business impact of security incidents.

  • CREST Cyber Security Incident Response (CSIR) scheme

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    CREST certified companies delivering effective cyber security incident response services for the majority of industry, the wider public sector and academia.

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    If your organisation has proven expertise in investigating sophisticated attacks by highly skilled threat actors against networks of national significance you may apply to be certified under the NCSC/CPNI Cyber Incident Response (CIR) scheme

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    Guidance08 Aug 2016TopicsIncident management, Cyber attacks

    This section from within the NCSC's '10 Steps To Cyber Security' concerns Incident Management.

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Heading - New Scientist Technology Blog

A technology blog from  Heading - NewScientist Blogs

Thursday, July 19, 2007

Adding emotions to online video

Having difficulty finding the right videos amidst the chaos on YouTube? A recent survey suggests you’re not alone.

But happily, there may soon be an easier way to tell whether the video in front of you will meet your expectations. A team of researchers led by Ling Chen of Zhejiang University in China is working on a new media player – called Emoplayer - that highlights the emotional state of the characters on the video timeline (see image, left).

Ultimately, they’d like to adapt technology that senses a person's emotional state to automatically add these tags to video clips. But that’s not possible just yet, so users have to add them by hand.

Still, experiments with Emoplayer suggests that these emotional markers let users navigate the content of a video much more easily and quickly than is possible with standard media players.

Testers were asked to search for a specific scene in a video, for example the moment when a character receives a gift from a friend. Those using ordinary media players randomly clicked around on the timeline until they found the right moment, but Emoplayer users, who made use of the emotion markers, were able to find it with ease.

Given this encouraging result, could the use of emotional tags improve sites like YouTube? Perhaps they’d help us all narrow down video searches and reduce our frustration?

Colin Barras, New Scientist intern

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